Beyond the Job: Is It Healthy to Tie Work to Identity?

Amy Brann  00:00

Who are you really? If your job title disappeared tomorrow, would you still feel like you we live in a world where our professions often define us. But is that healthy, and what happens when we take a break, change careers or retire? Do we struggle because work has become too much of our identity, or does it give us a sense of purpose that we just can’t live without? I without? Today we’re exploring the neuroscience of identity and the benefits and risks of tying your self worth to your job and how to strike a balance between career success and personal fulfillment. If you’ve ever felt lost without work or wondered how to separate who you are from what you do, then this episode’s for you. Let’s dive into it.

 

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  00:43

So Amy, you encounter so many professionals who have very demanding jobs, and you must hear this all the time, really. But how? How do people define themselves? Is it just purely related to their occupation? And if so, how does that tend to impact them? Or do they even recognize that it’s impacting them?

 

Amy Brann  01:09

I think that’s really varied in terms of the awareness out there. So I think people are starting to wonder, is it healthy to define myself primarily by my profession? I think these questions often come when there’s a transition time, so often a mum returning to work after having a baby. I think some of the questions and exploration now is around, is it normal to struggle if I’m taking time out of work, or what happens if I lose my job or change careers? I know probably a larger number of women than is part of the national average who don’t have a paid employment. It might be that their primary role is as a mother or a spouse, but I think people are really asking, How do I balance my professional identity with my personal life or my roles outside of work, and because these stories of transition and change are becoming more normalized, we’re having more conversations about this, and we’ve probably got more ill health or more people out of work for health related reasons than perhaps at other times, people being made redundant at times, and certainly awareness around retirement and what impact that can have. I think it’s it’s good to look at this, because our identity is hugely influential, and it impacts us a lot of every day. And I think that is in the dark. I don’t think we really realize what impact what we believe about who we are is having on ourselves, and then you start getting into all the expectations that come as part of those roles, and that’s where we then have an opportunity to do things differently that might make life easier or better in some regards. So I think when looking at this topic, I’ve approached it as kind of the pros and cons of our identity being purely from our work, and possibly the biggest and meatiest chunk is around our sense of purpose and meaning as a benefit that work can offer us, or I could even say our role can offer us, because it could be any role that if we choose to look at it as purposeful and meaningful, then that can be hugely valuable to us, and if it aligns with our values, whatever this role is, then it can be a hugely powerful source of motivation and fulfillment. It can activate the the regions of the brain that are specifically linked to fulfillment and reward, like the ventromedial prefrontal cortex, and it can correlate with the positive emotional feelings that can enhance our overall well being. So if there was one thing that would be recommended, it would be to get clear on your values and the purpose and meaning behind whatever role you have. I imagine you see people for whom this is a reality and for whom it isn’t. And have you noticed anything there?

 

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  04:18

Yeah, I mean, from personal experience, even Amy, you know, I, as you know, my training has been very lengthy, as are other professions. But so, you know, having years in this profession, it’s, you know, completely not an unreasonable thing for that to form the basis of my identity. You know, it’s such a huge part of my life, and I definitely know that after my maternity leave, unfortunately, my relationship ended as well. At the same time as my maternity leave ending, I did dread going back to work, but actually going back to work really boosted my self esteem and sense. Worth again. I was feeling useful again, and I was feeling really grateful to my patients who were grateful for me, and I was providing a service to the community of patients. And I Yeah, it really did add a lot of kind of, yeah, my self worth was, was kind of again, highlighted at a time when it could have really plummeted, and I owe that to my job. I mean, my very first patient that I had post maternity and returning to work was an individual who had gone through a breakup as well. And it, it was a, it was a chap, actually. And I thought, Oh, I have empathy for this person. And it was a real kind of light bulb moment for me that that forms a really important aspect of my personality, having that empathy towards somebody, and the kind of loss of my relationship did not remove that from my kind of my brain or my heart. You know, I was still an empathetic doctor, but that’s it, you know, I was an empathetic doctor, and that was the ultimate, you know, ultimately, that’s where my identity has always been. And so I think there are definite, definite strengths in identifying that. And for me, going back to work after such a terrible time was, yeah, really powerful. You know, I was Jesse again at work. And it kind of also feeds into that, that kind of community being part of a team, psychologically, when you feel part of a team and you’ve all got similar goals and similar end points and a shared a shared goal to help people. In my case, that was really powerful for me. It

 

Amy Brann  06:54

sounds incredible. Yeah. How synchronous that, after such a challenging time, your first patient back could remind you of the good that comes from some challenging situations and that you were still you really lovely. The Okay, so, yeah, self worth, hugely important and really great that we can get it from work, I guess the other side of that, and sort of my alarm bells are gently ringing as a caution to think, What could that be detrimental in any way? And I guess. I wonder if, if that were the only source of self worth one had, then it could drive less helpful behaviors, couldn’t it? Do you see that? I mean, I guess maybe, are we talking about risk of burnout, if we’re thinking this is and it’s the next stage along which is not where you’re at at all. But if someone were to think that this is their only way of being worthy, is through what they do in a particular role, they might work longer hours, they might neglect personal boundaries. They might feel that they have to meet certain expectations the stress response, the disruption to the amygdala, prefrontal cortex, working we could even see then over time, obviously, speaking specifically, if it was a chronic situation, but reduce, reduction in gray matter in particular regions of the Brain, Further compounding possible impacts of stress and anxiety. Do you see that with people as well?

 

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  08:46

Yeah, all the time. So it’s a double edged sword, and so obviously my experience is unique to me. But you know, life throws us curveballs, doesn’t it? Illness and health challenges, you don’t see them coming. You know, they’re not always going to be predictable, and I do see that in patients who then have unexpected diagnoses and life changing diagnoses. And you know, they hold so much of their kind of identity in that role that they may hold, whether that be in a professional sense, or, you know, as a caregiver to a unwell spouse or, you know, a parent who’s got children to look after. You know, their role is so important to them, but when life throws them a curve ball, it can be really difficult to then navigate that and so not being able to to kind of fulfill that role can knock confidence and then negatively impact people. So it’s it is really about balance here. Having that sense of worth because it’s attached to your identity in your professional role or other roles is great, but having. Too much attached to any one role is not healthy. I

 

Amy Brann  10:05

think that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, and so it’s almost spreading the risk, isn’t it? It’s, you know, I love my identity as a doctor. I love my identity as a parent. You know, I love my identity as a person in a relationship, but and as a friend, and you know all those other hats that you wear, making sure that you are tuned into those different roles, the value you provide, the value you get from those different roles, is almost a safeguarding strategy to make sure that if one changes or goes it doesn’t knock us too far. Absolutely,

 

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  10:48

it’s difficult. It’s difficult. And you know, it’s taken me a lot of self reflection in order to achieve that balance. You know, I have, I do, yeah, I have multiple hats and multiple roles. And like you say, it’s about kind of having equal risk in each role, which then means that if any one role is impacted, you can kind of even things out. But it is. It doesn’t have to be an instantaneous thing. You know, could be a gradual process, but the first step is always then identifying how much importance Am I attaching to this particular role in my life, and is that healthy for me?

 

Amy Brann  11:31

I think so. I think it’s this is quite a meaty, deep topic that you chose. And I think the All right, sorry. One of the side areas of research that could be important is around contribution. So I’m often encouraging organizations to think about how they talk to their people, about the role that people are serving in the organization. You know, with some of the work that we’ve done together with some organizations, my preference is for people to consider the contribution that individuals are making. Why? Because I know the research around contribution. If we’re perceiving something as us contributing to it, you’ve got more chance of activating the reward networks in the brain, which is desirable. Dopamine can be helpful for focus attention and repeating behaviors. So motivational approaches if we’re thinking that we’re just performing something or that we’re doing it for other means, you know, for self gain or for to achieve something that’s really far out, you’ve got more you’ve got more risk associated with that, for that to derail someone, cause stress, cause problems. If we’re focused on how we’re contributing in these different roles, then I think that changes things. I’m thinking about neurally, how it changes things. And certainly you’ve got the benefit of the reward network and activation, but I wonder whether you’ve also, especially when there’s this is a separate point, but the team side of things, the being part of something that’s bigger than yourself, that’s gonna connect us to the social aspect, possibly still, of contribution. But that seems like it would be really beneficial, too. So that’s perhaps another protective approach that we could take, making sure that we’ve got the social connection and community strands to our work, our different roles,

 

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  13:47

absolutely and and I think that I mean one exercise that I encourage my trainees to to do when they first start in the practice with me. So I oversee my trainees over their three year period. And in the first two years, they’re moving around multiple hospital jobs and other GP practices. But their final year is with me, and when they first come to me, I try to, I try to establish what their values are. So I so I give them an exercise, and they say, Look, if you could, if you could outline your perfect day, what would that look like? And I don’t mean just from a working point of view, a professional point of view, I said, I say to them, if you could incorporate all the things that you love and make your day perfect at work, what would that involve? You know, it could be 15 minutes of kitesurfing in the middle of the day, or it could be having a coffee with your best mate who lives up in York, you know, if you know, if you you know, these are really unrealistic and unachievable things. But what I’m magic wonder Jesse, what I’m trying to do is establish what they what, where value lies for them. And of course, I can’t 100% match that perfect day for them and let them all go quiet surfing, but what it shows to me is that they play. Face value and importance on these particular hobbies, you know, getting out exercising, and you know, as an organization, okay, yes, less so in my my profession as a doctor, but in organizations, how can you incorporate people’s values into their working day, which, as you have already alluded to, increases productivity and efficiency, and by then, kind of being more aware of people’s values, and inherently, you know, how their brain works and what makes them, what motivates them and makes them tick, that that’s got to be a, you know, a kind of a good approach here. Surely,

 

Amy Brann  15:38

absolutely, I love that exercise. I think everyone should do that to gleam the things that are important to people, because, as you say, it’s what it triggers. It’s what it represents, not it’s not necessarily just the kite surfing. They may love kite surfing, but there may be other ways to get what kitesurfing gives them in a working day when they can’t always get the kite surfing in. So that sounds brilliant, and it sounds like, from a psychological perspective, it’s that sort of multi dimensional identity. So it’s not just the I am this, I do that, and that’s how I contribute, but it’s it’s broader, and that it increases options. And I think a coaching based approach is always suggesting increasing choice is wise for individuals, and having more ways that you can have a great day beyond just your identity at work is a good thing. So yeah, what jumped into my head there is the other risk of a purely focused work identity is what happens when you’re not doing so good at work? What happens if you’re is that then where some of our problem with people’s hunger for feedback and challenge around feedback is coming from because my suspicion is that a lot of us are not comfortable not being perfect, and is that because we’ve just got such an identity linked to what we’re doing? And then if I say, but you’re not a perfect doctor at the moment trainee, then they’re going to feel like, oh my gosh, all of these years, decades, you know, well, not quite decades, but you know, coming up to a decade that I’ve been investing in this process, if I’m getting stuff wrong, does that mean I was wrong to choose this profession? Like, do I not know myself at all, like all of the cascade of negativity that could ensue, and yet, you’ve got to give them feedback. They need to know whether they when they’ve done something wrong. And it’s the same in many other industries and professions. Obviously it’s very acute and potentially life threatening in medicine, but that’s one of the reasons I love talking to you, and I love the medical example, is because often then it can be reassuring for other people. It’s like, yeah, we’ve got to do it in medicine, but we’ve we’ve also got to do it in other places. But in some ways, it could be easier in other disciplines, because we’re not talking about the life and death, but the effect that it has on the individuals is going to be the same, isn’t it? People are going to hear feedback, yeah. And obviously

 

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  18:13

my profession, of course, is less lenient on this front for obvious reasons, in terms of, you know, setbacks, and so we definitely are really hot on minimizing those and mitigating those. But setbacks are a part of growth, and it’s really important to be continuously learning from from things like that. And you know, from my trainees, for example, a patient interactions are and discussing those interactions are so important. You know, as part of their examination preparation for their final GP exams, they have to, it’s slightly different to when I sat my exams, but they have to submit recordings. And actually, the new exam, it’s been changed recently, is to do some online patient scenarios with actors who are very well trained, but I make a conscious effort in the preparation for that exam to say to them, Look, do your recordings? Obviously, get patient consent for with real life patients to record your interaction. And then let’s, let’s listen to some of them. And I don’t tell them in advance which ones we’re going to listen to. I ask them to just record and then I say to them, okay, so this tutorial we’re going to, we’re going to go through some of your recordings. Oh, well, let’s just scrap some of them. Which ones are really awful, which ones were really bad, which ones like just went terribly. And then they admit to me which ones they are and I said, Great, we’re gonna we’re gonna look at those ones then. And they are mortified initially, but they’re the ones that they learn the most from. There’s no point us watching the ones where they’ve done a stunning performance. It’s the ones where they feel things could have gone really, you know, they went really wrong, and they could have done better. So that’s it, these setbacks. They’re all such learning, you know, amazing learning opportunities. And I think in in any organization, not just mine, not just the NHS and medical, but. When things happen, it’s really important to then have processes in place, which I think a lot of the organizations you work with are very good at this. But you know, what could we have done differently? What? What can we learn from this experience?

 

Amy Brann  20:13

I agree. I think there’s real hunger for that. I think individuals still struggle with being okay with not being perfect, and some organizations that’s because people perceive still a blame culture. So they think if, if I admit to not having done this right, it’s all going to be on me, and that’s going to be really negative. And there’s an awful lot of complexity when trying to unpack this with companies and fix all the different influences on that, but certainly one thing that each of us have the responsibility to do is to make sure our identity goes beyond only our work, to take our work seriously, to love the opportunity, we have to contribute, but almost be a well, yeah, get I feel like there’s getting to a point where knowing that we might not be the right fit for a role. And you know, certainly there’s so many jobs that I would be the wrong fit for, I would be incompetent. I would not have the skills, not have the right mind set, I would not approach things well. But I wonder how comfortable we each are acknowledging that and making sure that we really know our values, but also our strengths and our weaknesses in different areas,

 

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  21:45

I think those conversations are happening. You know, society is shifting. There’s a lot more work to be done, of course. But you know, even things like, you know, I’m definitely not the perfect mother, but I, I like to think I’m a good one, and actually, it’s okay for me to not always be perfect, and recognizing that and forgiving myself, you know, the mum guilt we’ve all we’ve all been there, those of us that have children, but we have guilt in other areas of our lives as well, like the guilt at work, not, you know, performing well enough and letting our colleagues down. And actually what we need to just do is to just take stock, stop and realize actually we this is one aspect. This is one facet of our of our life, one aspect of our personality, one hat that we have and we’re doing, we’re doing alright, actually, and having that internal kind of introspection, that self reflection, not being so hard on ourselves. Yes, we need to recognize when things need to change, and we need to, you know, perhaps build on certain areas of our lives, but actually just reminding ourselves that being perfect isn’t, isn’t all that it’s kind of made out to be, you know, it’s okay to not be perfect.

 

Amy Brann  22:54

Yeah, I love that. Amy, I look so look at the organizations and the people entering that phase of their life, and then also rewind and look at schools and think about, how are we nurturing children that recognize their identity Is is beyond what they produce or deliver academically. And different schools are doing this to different Yeah, embracing it at different levels. I would say one school I’m aware of really try and encourage people to be good citizens. So to think about what’s your not just like, what scores are you going to get in Latin What are you contributing to your local community? It might be fundraising, but one school have these Friday afternoon opportunities where there are different clubs, and the young people can choose clubs that are purely for their benefit, purely fun. It might be rowing or Karate, but it might also be going to the local old people’s home and spending time with old people, it might be going to the local school that’s got children that might have differences in learning abilities, and the contribution that they receive, I think, for the experience they have being in these environments is immense, but it also helps them to recognize that their contribution is greater than just their ability to get high grades. And I think I don’t know of studies that track those humans going forward in life, but it would be really interesting to see if those early experiences that, rather than narrowing people’s focus, is expanding it, to see how that supports people going on in the future.

 

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  24:45

Something really interesting. I don’t know if I told you this actually, but my partner, he is half Jewish, and he recently attended a funeral, sadly, but there was a rabbi there, Herschel Gluck, and he. He he met my partner, and he shook his hand, and he said, you know, Hello, my name is Herschel. Who are you? So my partner told him his name, and he said, but no, who are you? And he said, Well, I’m Josh, and this is what I do. I’m a I’m a GP. And he said, yes, you’re telling me your name and you’re telling me what you do, but who are you? And now there’s this running joke that my son and my partner do, where they greet one another, they hold each other’s hand, they shake each other’s hands, and they look into each other’s eyes and they say, who are you? And they keep repeating it and repeating it and getting more and more information out. And I just thought that was fantastic. That’s a great way for my son to kind of explore who he really is with just one question, and you don’t give up asking that question until you hear more and more. So I, you know, I challenge you, Amy, to deep, look deeply into your daughter’s eyes today and ask her, who are you.

 

Amy Brann  25:59

It’s magical, isn’t it? And what a wonderful experience to have, like off the cuff. I mean, that’s in textbooks as a great exercise, but for a rabbi to be, from my perspective, out there enough to actually do it in the real world to a stranger, that’s really magical. No, you hadn’t told me that story. I love it, and it is, and that’s the crux of it, isn’t it is, who do we think we are? Do we think we are just a doctor or, you know, a consultant or an author or whatever it might be? Do we think we are just a mum? Do we whatever it is, all of those things have more value than we perhaps recognize on a day to day basis, but also, yeah, what are the other responses to those questions? I’m interested in what his responses were when pressed under pressure, and I’m not I’m not sure how far or I would take my my answers, and I’m not sure how vulnerable I’d be in that situation. But I guess the invitation is, is to make sure that we can be that vulnerable with some people. Certainly there was one of my daughter’s friends who seriously impressed me was at Christmas time. Wrote, I think it was Christmas time, wrote not just a single word on a card for each of her friends. And it was, it was like all of the words were nice, but they were all sort of how she experienced the different friends. And I can’t remember the other words that the other children were given, but I remember the word that my daughter was given, and it’s really stuck with me, and I’ve tried to really reinforce it with my daughter. So she was given this word, given this card that just said kind. And I said, That’s so beautiful, like, that’s who she sees you as she doesn’t see you as good at science or good at drama or, you know, it’s not about what you do or what your academic achievements are. It’s not well, it’s partly that you bring her nice food that you’ve baked. But it’s, it’s more than that. It’s this is, this is the position that you occupy. This is your identity to her. And, you know, it’s only a part of the identity, but it’s a lovely part, and it’s a part that probably is not frequently recognized in her main environment. So at school, do we tend to write, raise up and praise that aspect of young people’s identity in most schools? No, like partly because of the time constraints. You know, teachers do an amazing job, and I’m sure many teachers do put a spotlight on great character traits and great behaviors. So yeah, let me be clear that I know teachers are doing an incredible job, and how does that translate to the workplace? You know, do we look at our colleagues on a regular basis and say, Wow, you are. And then whatever they are, not these other things, and I think that is one of the opportunities we have, is to really raise each other up in in our professional lives, obviously, as friends, that’s one of our main jobs, and we get to do that, which is a wonderful part of our roles as friends. But in the workplace, I think that could happen more to help people see their value outside of just perhaps what they produce, or the classic role. Any parting thoughts, it’s been a lot. This one for me, it’s

 

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  29:40

been a lot. Yeah, it has been a lot. I guess really It’s, um, I’d probably say, just be vulnerable and honest with yourself and actually ask yourself that question and see what answers come to mind. If, uh, if rabbi, Herschel, Herschel Gluck came to you, Amy, what would you what would you say to him? Yeah. Hmm,

 

Amy Brann  30:01

that’s a brilliant thing to reflect on. I definitely will. Well, if you’ve found today’s episode as helpful as I have and as stimulating, then please do share it with a friend or colleague who might find it helpful. It’s one of the best ways to help us grow and reach more people like you. So make

 

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  30:18

sure you’re following us on your preferred viewing or listening platform, so you’re first to know when a new episode is released. You.