Amy Brann  00:00

Overthinking. It’s something we all do, but what is the real cost? Is it just harmless daydreaming, or is it a hidden drain on our mental energy, sleep and even our health? Today, we’re taking a closer look at overthinking, not just as an everyday habit, but as a cycle that can hold us back from making decisions, being present and finding clarity. We’re peeling back the layers from what happens in your brain when you can’t stop spiraling to the practical evidence based tools that you can use to break free. We’ll answer the questions that so many of us have asked, Why do I overthink? How can I stop my mind from racing at night? And are there real, proven techniques to calm the storm actually in the moment? Join us as we unpack the research, share relatable stories and give you actionable tools to regain focus, feel more in control and reclaim your peace of mind. Overthinking isn’t a badge of honor. It is a signal to take back our mental space.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  00:56

Gosh, overthinking. I think we’re all guilty of this, Amy, aren’t we, and it’s exhausting, so come on, spill the beans. What do people share with you?

Amy Brann  01:05

I hear it is exhausting, and it’s really widespread, I think, from listening to people. So people are often asking me, Is it possible to stop my brain overthinking things? What causes it. Why do I actually do it? Are there specific techniques that can work in the moment and at night time when it seems to strike many people? How can I stop it then and improve my sleep? So I think it is a widespread problem, a challenging problem, but there is lots of research around what’s happening and how it’s happening, and what we can do differently from your perspective. Jess, what are some of the effects of overthinking?

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  01:51

So all these ruminating thoughts that we sometimes have being in that negative headspace, they’re really detrimental, and it can lead to anxiety, which then affects our decision making, our ability to stay focused and just retaining information, and all of this constant overthinking can impact even our self esteem and how we see ourselves, and perpetuate self doubt that was just not it’s not practical. It’s exhausting, as I said earlier, and it can increase your risk of conditions such as depression. So there’s a few kind of physical things that overthinking can then cause high blood pressure. I see people coming in, they have these high readings, and it’s, you know, going to have its toll on the body in a way that we can’t see. You know, blood pressure is not something that has symptoms recurrent infections. You know, when you’re feeling really run down and you’re picking up every cold under the sun that your child may be bringing home to you, or if you’re working in an office space with air conditioning, you know, everyone’s coughing and sneezing, and you’re picking everything up and then sleep. You know, classic, isn’t it? You’re laying there, it’s quiet. You’ve got nothing else around you, no distractions, no stimuli. And then your brain goes into overdrive, and you start thinking about all those things that your brain has tried to suppress during the day. And I know definitely for me, there’s a bit of a tipping point when I’m overthinking, and it kind of then leads into procrastination. So I have a list of things that I like to do. I like to make lists, but I know that I’ll go for the easy wins first, and I will very much procrastinate. And the things that really are stressing me or making me overthink, I tend to shove down the list, which just seems really counterproductive, but it’s just a way of coping with when there’s so much going on. I think it’s just a way of how, you know, how I personally tend to then become very unproductive. And I think the other thing that we can end up doing is just we, you know, we over analyze things so much that it but I know that definitely, for me, that I’m really mindful of how I’m impacting other people. And as a result of that, I’m constantly thinking, you know, how are my actions and behaviors going to impact someone else? But even that over analysis, you know, is is tiring. And I think that as a as a GP, you know, there’s overthinking, and then there’s kind of more clinical diagnoses, so things like OCD, which we’ve got to kind of be mindful of and kind of draw a separation to really. So you know, obsessive compulsive disorder, when you have obsessions, they’re persistent, unwanted recurring thoughts and compulsions are repetitive behaviors or mental acts, but both of these things are time consuming and distressing in OCD and interfere with daily life. So that is a little bit more of an extreme of overthinking, but it’s important to kind of differentiate between between that.

Amy Brann  04:49

But yeah, it’s really important to separate out those, but also recognize that as as humans and the medical community are the ones that have separated these out. So. So a person is a person experiencing what they’re experiencing, and whether it’s sub clinical in terms of the diagnostic criteria, or has has got the associated symptoms that mean it is a diagnosable condition and then potentially treatable. It’s sometimes it’s not clear cut for the individual, which I think is part of the benefit to talking about these to talking about these things, and also the benefit to looking at some of the neural underpinnings of them. So a neuroscientist whose work I really respect is called Jeffrey Schwartz, and He’s based in the States, and he’s sort of semi retired now, but a lot of his work on OCD has really helped the field, and he’s got a great book, I think it’s called the four steps. But if you look up Jeffrey Schwartz and OCD, you’ll find some really good stuff, and some of his approaches are useful, whether you’ve got a clinical diagnosis for a challenge or whether you’ve got a subclinical challenge that you and I have both experienced at times in our life and can relate to. And so those strategies, those evidence based approaches, will work in a similar way, because the neural underpinnings are similar. So I mean, you said there that it if this is left untapped, as it were, unregulated, it can cause real, physical and mental challenges potentially. And we don’t, you know, we don’t say this because we want people to be worried, but we, we sometimes, I think we’d socially normalize so much so if, yeah, like, between friends, if we talk and, oh, you know, thinking about this, we might not disclose, huh? I’ve really been struggling with my rumination recently, and I feel the overthinking of getting a little out of hand. We don’t talk like that to our friends, but we do normalize these sort of repetitive thought patterns, and perhaps, aren’t thinking about what the impact is that they’re having whether or not they really need addressing, and I know we’re all busy, so the idea of putting another thing on the to do list of must work on, overthinking strategies maybe isn’t sounding appealing, but it could be that it’s really important. It’s another way that we can look after ourselves and help our brains to work better, knowing that that will also have an impact on our bodies and our health as an overall picture. Does that sound fair?

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  07:30

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, I mean, we had a conversation this morning, didn’t we, about how exactly that, how you get to a point where, how you’re behaving and how you’re thinking. You’ve been doing that for so long that that does seem normal. So when you do make those shifts and adjustments, you feel a little it feels a bit alien, doesn’t it? And you think, Oh, this doesn’t feel right. This doesn’t feel like me. But actually, you then kind of come down from that heightened state, and you’re actually in a really balanced state, but it feels so strange because you haven’t been there for such a long time. Yeah,

Amy Brann  08:06

and isn’t that interesting? Because our, like our homeostatic reset, we’re not always consciously aware of it. So our, if our baseline has shifted, like our stress baseline has shifted from, you know, being a nice, healthy middle, if it shifted up, then that way of being and way of working, I often get it on holidays, you know, when if I stop and I’m having a proper rest, I know now that it happens, but for years, I just would say the same thing every time I stop, say to my husband, oh, I’m feeling very strange. I think maybe I’m coming down with something. I don’t quite know how my body feels different. You know, my head, everything feels weird. And eventually we realized I was relaxed and it just wasn’t my, my default way of being. So it was very noticeable when it changed. And I guess this could be part of the situation that’s occurring with the overthinking, you know, epidemic, it will pandemic. It really is quite widespread, isn’t it?

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  09:07

It is, and actually, you know, it’s, again, something that you’ve just very nicely demonstrated. There’s just such a lack of insight, isn’t there? You know, we just don’t know in ourselves how we’re meant to feel when we’re balanced, because it’s been so long that we haven’t felt balanced, and that’s because society is, you know, it’s encouraging us to be all singing, all dancing, and actually, there are times when we don’t have to be but we’re so used to trying to be high performing all The time that we just accept that that is our new norm. And I often say to patients, you know, try and dial down and turn down the background noise. It’s really difficult to do though. You know it’s, I think you know when you then recognize those states. I guess. Try to kind of make a note of that, or try and be aware of that, so that you know what that feels like. But it is tricky. And like you say, We’re all so busy that there’s just doesn’t seem to be time to take a step back unless you’re on holiday

Amy Brann  10:18

well. And what we’re trying to do is give people options outside of the holidays or the stopping so to continue being high performing, but make some tweaks to some of the habits that we all get into that are evidence based to mean that we can change how our brains are responding, and in this example, reduce how much we’re overthinking. We still want to think, but we want to think effectively, and yes, increase our self awareness when we might get into that rumination track. I know we’re doing a whole other podcast on cognitive load, but I do think it really links nicely to this topic. So look out for that when it comes because when our cognitive load is really high, it would be conceivable that overthinking would be a natural next step. So shall I unpack a bit more of what we think is happening in the brain when we are overthinking? Yeah, please. So there’s definitely increased activity in the prefrontal cortex, which is predictable and fairly standard. It’s involved in our decision making, our planning, our complex thinking, but it can also manifest when we’re having this additional activity there as excessive evaluation or self critical type thoughts and the repeated, the the ruminating, so the link leaping over things, looping over things, time and time again. The anterior cingulate cortex is involved, and this is a wonderful region of the brain. It looks out for errors and manages emotional reactions. It’s sort of sensitive to that. Sometimes it’s likened to the alarm light the alert light on the dashboard, so it draws our attention to things when things might be off, but it can also then mean that we are more switched on to mistakes or uncertainties, and that then can give us cognitive fuel to go over things and replay them and plan out all the different scenarios and be concerned about all of those different scenarios. We’ve got Amy deliver activation, which is really linked to our emotional processing, but is especially alerted to fear and the negative emotions we tend to categorize them. There’s loads of studies saying that we are more attuned to more responsive to the negatives. Unfortunately, you can see why it’s happened from an evolutionary perspective, but still can be difficult. And then I’d sort of link in here. We know that some people might have slightly larger, denser connected amygdala compared to other people. There’s some research into people with autism that all their brains are different, as are all neurotypical brains different, but you can see some collections of similarities, and if there’s increased density in particular region of the brain, it may or may not link to increased activation, and I think certainly I’ve seen on occasion that that can be linked to increased emotional sensitivity or difficulties with emotional regulation, which then requires our prefrontal cortex to be in good condition. And the irony with all these things is, if we, for example, aren’t sleeping so well because we’re up and ruminated and thinking about things, then that can make it more difficult to do the regulation that we’re so needing our prefrontal cortex to be involved in there can also sometimes, and this is certainly from a clinical perspective with OCD, which we’ve talked about, but I think it could be the case with overthinking too. Is that you can have dysregulation in the basal ganglia, which is involved in our habit formation, and the corticosteroidal Thalmor cortical circuit, so another one of the circuits that’s involved in the reward responses and conditioning our behaviors and our thoughts. So this can help to regulate thoughts, but if it’s dysregulated, then we can be more predisposed to go in those circles of overthinking. So there’s lots there’s lots of potential neural challenges when we have ourselves become better at overthinking things. And why is that important? Well, I think it’s useful because I. So anytime we’ve got structural brain changes that either have occurred for some clinical reason or because we’ve habitually done something, then we’re more it’s going to take longer to rewire those changes. We can’t expect there to be a change overnight, which is bad news on the one hand, but on the other hand, I think we absolutely have to be clear with our expectations, because if we’re expecting everything to be changed tomorrow, because we’ve done one one mindfulness meditation, okay, everything will be better. I’ve done the mindfulness now, why aren’t I better? Then we will be disappointed. So knowing that it takes a while for our brain to wire in one way, it’s going to take a while for it to wire in the other way. But that said, there are things that we can do that may help in the moment and will certainly be helping our brain rewire over time. So what are some of those things that we can do? Jess,

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  15:59

yeah, so there are loads of tools, and there’s lots of science behind all of these tools, which you can read more about in the podcast notes as well, if you if you wish. So I’m not going to go into too much detail there, but I mean cognitive behavioral therapy is such a fantastic way to try and address some of these ruminations and try and achieve more of that balance, and I think that it’s something that people often think is a bit out of reach for them, and that they’re admitting that there’s something wrong if they try to kind of go towards that route. But it’s something that is worth trying if you are really finding that your constant overthinking is having an impact on your day to day. And as I said before, I do try to advise patients to kind of dial down all the background noise, and you mentioned their meditation and mindfulness again, you think, oh gosh, how am I going to have time to do any of that stuff? But it doesn’t have to take a lot of time. It could just be five minutes in your day just to have that moment’s peace and try to reflect and, yeah, just slow down a little bit. And the other thing that is quite important is to try and have a think about the kind of thoughts you’re having and try to challenge those thoughts and reframe what they actually mean. You know, we don’t often treat ourselves with much compassion, I think. And you know, I know that when I’m talking to you and we’re having conversations about things that might be challenging, I’m very compassionate to you, and yeah, I would not necessarily be so kind to myself. So I think sometimes putting yourself in front of a mirror and thinking, if I was talking to my best friend, would I be saying this to them? Probably not. So I think we’re quite negative and hard on ourselves, so showing a little bit of compassion can go a long way. And I definitely know that I make lists and I try to scribble things down, but there’s a lot of evidence behind kind of journaling. And for me, I know that I definitely when I’m overthinking, I need to get it out of my head and external to me, and then I can compartmentalize and put it into that little box, and I’ll have little boxes for everything. But if it’s not, then in my mind, I can then find a better place to kind of just switch off and relax. And I know that I am guilty of putting higher stress items on my list further down, and they should be the things I should be addressing first. So I think it’s just I know definitely I’m guilty of this. I like to have that sense of achievement, where you’ve got your list and you’ve got your scribbles and and you want to feel like you’ve been productive today. So the more I can tick off, the better I feel. But that’s not always. It’s a bit of a slippery slate that’s not always very helpful. And you know, the whole Doom scrolling at night. You know, having your phone by your bed is is the worst thing you can do, really, but it, you know, having distractions are helpful. So listening to podcasts or audio books or audio books or something else that aren’t going to kind of visually stimulate you, are probably a good way of, kind of getting around that at night time, or even just getting up removing yourself from your area of sleep. You know, it’s about practicing good sleep hygiene, which you know we are all again guilty of, maybe having that caffeinated drink before bed, or, you know, having too much screen time, not getting enough exercise or fresh air during the day. And, I know, post divorce, I just, I basically went in on myself a little bit, and I kind of just was scrolling on Instagram or whatever social media platforms you have, just because it was mindless. But actually that wasn’t, then helping me to kind of work through things, and it can become quite a negative headspace as well, because, as we all know, the reality versus what you see isn’t, you know, it’s not always accurate. So yeah, there are loads of tools. There’s. Is a scientific basis behind all of these tools, and it can seem like a bit of a leap, and it can seem like it’s going to be quite time consuming, but there is definitely merit in taking that time to just try and reset and achieve that balance again.

Amy Brann  20:20

So I love the journaling. I was never a big fan at all. Thought the idea was silly, but looked at a lot of the evidence behind it, and sort of how it can work. And for me, it does help me process my thoughts, and I love having it out of my head on paper, and I often feel differently after I’ve done it. So that would be an in the moment I’m feeling stressed about over thinking I keep going around something, so get it onto paper. I And that’s useful, as I say, in the moment, but it also can then help condition you to think differently. Linked to it is the opportunity to ask yourself different questions, because I’ve got a list of more powerful questions that if I find myself going over old thoughts, I’ll challenge myself with a fresh question. And there’s loads of resources out there for you to select good questions that you that resonate with you, which you think about how much time we actually lose to repetitive thoughts rather than fresh thinking. And quite often, we need that stimulus to interrupt the cycle, the neural cycle that’s going on. We need help to get out of that pattern. And one of the other evidence based things people can do is it’s called behavioral activation, which sounds incredibly fancy for do something, stop just thinking and do something. And, oh, do you know I was I was at the theater yesterday, and I had this lovely, lovely experience. I was I was finding things a bit stressful, like taking my younger daughter and my older mother out and about. Sometimes I’m just very mindful of their differing needs, and so my mind is often thinking about those things. And I definitely noticed in my body, I was a bit tenser than I would probably like to be. And this was a nice treat. And then this old lady, who was with a younger lady on crutches and with a boot on her foot, said I was pushing an empty wheelchair at this point because my mother didn’t need it. At that particular point, it was a very short walk from the pub. We’d been into the theater, so she was walking that little bit, and this, this whole lady said, Would you mind if we used your wheelchair? And I thought from it was like, oh, that’s fine. And so her, her daughter, pretty much collapsed into this wheelchair. And so I got chatting to her, and she’d had a fall in the car park, along with recovering from this operation, and she was in a in a bad way, and it was lovely to be able to try and reassure her and give her a safe space to sit and get her into the theater and towards her seat where she could decompress and relax and make a plan For getting home safely. And it was the biggest state interrupt and made me feel so much better. And that wasn’t some fancy neural technique that was, get out of your head and do something that’s helpful. And yet, so often, I find those opportunities really, really enriching. I often feel most good when I’ve done something that’s helpful for others. And this was a very minor inconvenience, and made me, and I think my whole family, feel good like, yeah, of course. You know, we can. It’s very easy to do something that helps someone sometimes. So that was nice. So, yeah, behavioral activation is one of my favorite sometimes,

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  24:02

Oh, that’s lovely. And I think, like you say, it doesn’t have to be pre planned. You know, studies have and research consistently supports the benefits of exercise, doesn’t it? But we always say, Oh, well, I know. I definitely say, Oh, I don’t have time for that. I’ve got too much to do. It’s too much on my list. But recently, in our local area, a skate park has opened up, and my five year old has his little scooter, and so he was quite keen to check it out. And I thought, oh gosh, okay, fine. Let’s get all your protective gear on. You got away, helmet, got away, elbow pads, knee pads, the works. And we went there, and I have to say, it did induce a few moments of palpitations when there were near misses, but chasing after him and trying to get him under control at times, and that little boost of energy was enough to get me, you know, back into a bit more of a balanced state. So, yeah, I think physical activity. Of any sort is beneficial. That was a little bit stress inducing at times, but in the end, we had such a good time. It was such a it was such a fun day. So yeah, getting out, getting fresh air, any kind of aerobic activity, is proven to be beneficial as well. So I do like that. I do like that compassion, that compact, that compassion that you talk about, and that doesn’t take any energy or effort, really, does it?

Amy Brann  25:29

No, I agree, and having those positive experiences gives our minds some other fuel to ruminate on, because to overthink how grateful we are for these wonderful moments and opportunities experiences in our lives, is a healthy form of overthinking or rumination, whereas typically, we’re talking about the negatives or the uncertains and the challenges that we think around. So there’s an element of discipline, I’d probably say, to course correcting, from negative rumination. And again, we want to acknowledge that can be difficult when people are worn down already. But as you say, there are small steps we can take. I’ve started doing it’s about 20 minutes. Sometimes it’s less of Pilates a day, and I’ve only been doing it for two weeks, so we won’t get too excited about it yet, but it’s a really good source of evidence for me that 20 minutes is something I can fit into my day. I don’t have to put all the gym clothes on for it. I’m often in leggings and a roll neck as a base layer for most things in life, and that’s what I can do the Pilates in. And it feels fantastic. And having those just 20 minutes gives me an anchor point to reflect on. So rather than reflecting on, oh, I’ve not done anything but any exercise I can go I’ve done those 20 minutes, you know, each of those days. And so I agree sometimes it isn’t about the big chunks of time. It’s about finding the things that work for your life. And these are things that we hear a lot, but I know people often tell me they can hear these kind of pieces of advice from lots of different people, but it isn’t until they try it that they actually realize, oh, this is a good idea. Why didn’t I do this before? So I think our encouragement to people is to experiment, and framing things as an experiment is really low risk. If it’s not working for you, if you don’t like it, you can stop. You can change. But if we’re not, if we’re not embracing experiments in our own life, then we’re really missing a trick, because we were pre judging stuff, and we might not discover something we love. I still remember my daughter. She was quite limited in food selections when she was younger, and to a degree now, but what she does do really well now is she’ll try things and she discovers amazing things. You know, had she never been open to trying cake, her life would be a much more limited experience. And she once tried gravy from my northern cousins, and that’s really changed her life too. So we never know what could be your next gravy? What could enhance your life? So, yeah, it’s up to each of us to experiment, isn’t it? It is.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  28:29

And you know, saying that you scheduled that that time as well, Amy, that 20 minutes in your day. So I can, then I can picture patient, a few patients, actually, in mind. Amy, who worrying is so integral to their day, and having these ruminating thoughts is just, just what they’re like. And they say, I can’t I can’t stop it. It’s just one of those things. I just can’t do it. And so, you know, I say to them, okay, well, schedule some time to do it. You know, you’re allowed to do it. Don’t feel bad about it, but just schedule some time in your day where you can have those anxious thoughts. Postpone them for that time in the day, which will then hopefully help you manage the overthinking. And there is research, research out there which shows that that technique can help reduce anxiety and the ruminating thoughts, so it can help people to feel more focused if they know that they can leave the worrying and the ruminating thoughts to that time of their day. So another, another kind of technique to try if you really feel like it’s a bit of a elite what we’re explaining at the minute, but maybe just as a take home, just try it. Have 10 minutes at four o’clock today where you’re going to have all your rumination and all your overthinking to be scheduled for that part of the day.

Amy Brann  29:39

Yeah, I totally agree. It’s the same with whinging. I think sometimes you need to have a good old whinge and get it out. And scheduling that and framing that, if you’re whinging to someone, you know, I just need to download. I just need to process externally. This for a moment can be really helpful. As you said. Okay, so we’ve looked at lots of different ways that we can recognize the overthinking, be aware of what impact it might be having, thinking about the different regions of the brain that are active and what the implications of these are, and some of the tools that we can use to stop overthinking in the moment and be reconditioning ourselves for the future. So thank you for all of this goodness. Jess and I hope that if you have enjoyed today’s episode, then you will share it with a friend or a colleague who might find it helpful. It’s one of the best ways to help us grow and reach more people like you. So make sure you’re following us on your preferred listening or viewing platform, so that your first to know when new episode is released. You.