Amy Brann  00:00

Have you ever wondered why some people seem to learn things so easily, while others can struggle to remember what they’ve had for breakfast? Is it true that learning gets harder with age and when you pick up something new? Are you somehow losing valuable brain space today, we’re diving deep into the research, the science, the strategies around learning itself, from LinkedIn workplace report to Toyota’s unique training methods, we’re uncovering why learning agility is now a must have skill with research back tools like space, repetition, interleave practice and the power of sleep, we’ll explore how we actually can make learning stick. So whether you’re trying to adapt in a fast paced world, trying to keep your brain sharp, or simply learn smarter, this episode is packed with insights and techniques to help you master your mind. If you’re ready to take your learning to the next level, then let’s jump in.

 

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  00:58

I’m so excited about this one, obviously, with my background as a GP educator as well, I find this topic fascinating, and I think we all have the ability to continue to learn. My job definitely involves lifelong learning, Amy, but yes, in other industries as well, there’s lots of parallels here. So what kind of things do people ask you with with regards to learning and kind of keeping going on that

 

Amy Brann  01:25

so there is a increasing requirement, I would say, across so many different sectors, to be learning, to be changing, to be agile, and all of these things we could, We could spend a week talking about the different ways to optimize, but some of the most frequent comments around specifically learning would probably be, what is the best way to learn new skills, or I’m finding it harder to learn as I get older. Is that normal, or people might say, when I learn new things, isn’t it just pushing the other stuff out of my brain, which I think we can relate to, but we need to address

 

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  02:09

absolutely and so in terms of learning, then, why? Why is it such an important topic? Amy,

 

Amy Brann  02:18

well, LinkedIn, their workplace learning report in 2023 showed that 93% of organizations are concerned about these skills gaps in their workforces, and 98% of learning professionals emphasize the need for adaptability. So it’s pretty well documented that the preference for employees in today’s world to be good at learning new skills and adapting. And lots of organizations find the engagement around this may not be what they would like it to be, but also they’ve got people that are repeatedly saying, I’m not being developed enough, and that’s a differentiator for their organization. So there’s lots of interesting things happening in this space, but I read a study, a report on what would been happening at Toyota recently, and it really struck me, because when new people join Toyota, which has long been known for its automation and its production systems, but the new people that were joining don’t learn how to operate the machines initially. Instead, they spend weeks, even months, learning to do by hand, what the machine can do automatically. And I think this is a really different approach. What they’ve said is that they are a distributed problem solving system, rather than just being a manufacturing system, and by putting its workers to work on the slow, manual tasks. They understand it so they grow, and they learn Amy Up skill in ways that they couldn’t if you took a different route to doing this. And the workers learn to appreciate the materials and understand how they work, and then, should they need to iterate? Should they need to be innovative? Their creativity, problem solving and experimentation skills, capabilities are far more advanced than if they’d not gone through that process. And they just wonder whether that’s something more organizations need to consider. But Jess you, as you say, you have been in the learning world for, well, pretty much since you were four, if not before. I know your parents well, they will have not waited till you were four to start doing more formal learning with you. Yeah. It was probably like three months, really, wasn’t it. So you are a pro learner. Check that on with your mum. But I imagine there were things that from that age you were doing and and you still learn, and you have to for your job, you know, if you are not current, that’s that’s not okay. So you always knew you were going into an industry where continuous learning was important. But what I guess, personally or professionally, what have you seen that is useful for you to continue learning?

 

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  05:37

Well, I have to say, first off, I think the way that I learn now versus how I learnt at medical school or even before, that has just vastly changed. Obviously, at different stages of my training, I’m exposed. I’ve been exposed to different clinical problems and increasing levels of responsibility. And it’s not just academic. So, you know, I went into medical medical school thinking, so there’s a lot of theory here, a lot of practical application, and, you know, we do a lot of simulation practice and training for different clinical scenarios, but especially in general practice, what I’ve really learned is actually it’s it’s more to do with kind of Life experiences that you are exposed to that determines how you continue to learn. So it’s not just academic, and that’s why I’m quite insistent with my GP trainees that they do practice good reflection on cases. We have. All our trainees have an online portfolio that I’m constantly checking in on to see what kind of cases they’re reflecting upon, as well as seeing them in reality, you know, day to day. But I think it’s so important to reflect and acknowledge the emotional connections you’re making. And I definitely know that if I have a trainee that comes to me with a particularly challenging case that has triggered or evoked some emotion within them, whether that’s a positive or a negative one. That is the perfect learning opportunity, and it’s a perfect anchor for us to then kind of remember that clinical scenario again, but not only with trainees, with patients. You know, I’ve had patients who go through life changing events. You know, people who have heart attacks, they end up in hospital. It’s a very scary time for them. Not to sound mean, but I use those moments as opportunities for some opportunistic health care and educating, because I think that people are more likely to act if they have an emotional link with you know, what you’re trying to explain to them? So, you know that fear from being in hospital, you know, explaining to them, yes, okay, we need to get on top of the blood pressure, we need to stop smoking, we need to lose weight, we need to do all of these things, otherwise we’re gonna end up in hospital again. And it’s can be seen as a quite mean approach, actually, but it delivers. And I think using these emotional anchors, there’s evidence behind that, isn’t there? Yeah,

 

Amy Brann  08:09

absolutely. I love that that’s been your experience in the real world, in the literature. It would suggest that these emotionally heightened moments absolutely are more memorable the way I think of it or explain it to children, typically, and adults, because it’s just a nice visual way of understanding it, but it’s the amygdala is located geographically close to the hippocampus. Hippocampus really involved in memory consolidation formation, and amygdala involved in the emotional experiences, but it’s like the amygdala gives the hippocampus a bit of a nudge. So at those moments you’re describing where emotions are running high, it’s like we are telling the part of our brain that’s going to help us consolidate this memory. Pay attention. This is really important stuff, and emotions have functions, and so I think it’s wonderful that we use these opportunities. I don’t know that they are used that intentionally or effectively in broader organizational learning. So you’ve clocked it, and you’re using it to support your trainees to get the best out of their learning. There, in recent times, more light has been shed on some negative emotions, for example, Regret. Regret can be a powerful learning tool, and a lot of people are so quick to move away from the negative emotions they miss the opportunity that they’re offering to us. If I regret something, it’s I partly processed it already to say, look, there’s something that wasn’t optimal here. It could be different. And pay attention. And if I don’t go through that reflective time, whether on my own or then in collaboration and support with a supervisor or a trusted friend or a colleague, then I’m missing out on a big opportunity. So we’ve got a shared colleague who is absolutely wild about reflection, isn’t she? Steph is who I’m thinking of that teaches on the coaching academy program in organizations with us, and she is always flying the flag for reflection. And a lot of, again, a lot of people in organizations that I know either don’t feel that they’re very good at it or don’t feel that they’ve got time for it. And I think those are linked, and sometimes if, if we spent more time on it, we would get better at it. And I think with structure, it can really be helpful for people, but the fact that it’s such an essential part of a medics training and keeping sharp, I think should be encouraging to people, sort of, if it’s good enough for you guys, we should really be paying more attention to it and building it in

 

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  11:05

Absolutely. And I think people reflect in different ways, don’t they like I as a trainee, I think I found the portfolio, the online portfolio, just such a headache. And I think I remember telling you my supervisor was constantly having to nudge me to do my my log entries. But I just found that after, you know, patient interaction that I was learning from or, you know, a challenge, I’m very much like I like to speak about these things. I like to verbally reflect and and talk these through, and obviously maintaining confidentiality, I would kind of offload onto you, and we’d talk about things, and that was my way of reflecting. And then to have to be told to write it down was always, I guess, an irritation for me, but looking back and reflecting actually, that was a really good way, not only to to kind of learn from that experience, but also, you know, we’ve spoken about overthinking in another podcast. It was a good way of getting it out of my brain and then journaling what had happened. But, you know, I have certain patients that I can think of where I will never forget their faces, I visualize them, and it really helps me to remember how I manage that particular case. And I try to encourage my trainees to use visualization as well, actually, because I think that’s quite a powerful tool as well, kind of from a neuro scientific point of view. You know, I’m sure you should shed light on this for us. Amy, but visualization is very, very useful,

 

Amy Brann  12:39

absolutely. Yeah, when we visualize things, we can be priming the brain in different ways. We can be activating neural circuits that would then need to be activated to create a scenario. I don’t subscribe to it being magical, like I think can be communicated around manifestation, but visualization from and activating the brain perspective is is really helpful. And if we can’t see something, it’s often more difficult for the brain to almost get on board with trying to achieve it so by it could be anything that someone’s wanting to learn. For example, if we’re learning in order to acquire some new skill or change some character traits, both of those would be benefited from by creating the picture in our minds of what that actually is going to look like. Ideally, we want to get feelings and as many sensory inputs on board and aligned with that as possible. But then there is, there’s lots and lots of different types of evidence for muscular strength improvement with visualization or dexterity. It’s harder to experiment and prove for some of the other aspects, but understanding how it works, there’s, there’s no downside that I’m aware of. So yeah, fully behind visualizing things. And again, think it could be something that could be done more effectively for a lot of individuals and in a lot of organizations, if you combine the two that you’ve mentioned in terms of visualizing where we’re heading, but also activate the emotional component of well, why are we going there? Then that would create more of a pull. You’d likely get dopamine released. You’d likely start a cascade of behaviors that could be reinforced positively. So yeah, seems like some good, good foundations going in.

 

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  14:49

Absolutely speaking of the dopamine here, I know that definitely for me becoming a trainer was there were some selfish reasons for it. Obviously, I wanted to help train the. Future workforce of general practice, but I do get a bit of a dopamine hit. It keeps me motivated. People are asking me questions. It’s tapping into my knowledge as well. So I think that in order to kind of keep going in this career for me personally, anyway, you know, it’s very stressful, but being, I guess a bit of a role model for my trainees has been quite rewarding, and it makes, you know, it kind of motivates me to stay on top of the latest kind of research. And, you know, obviously patient safety is paramount, and we have to continuously be up to date with our learning as GPS as doctors. So I think it’s just really for me, an additional motivating factor to be involved in education. I think there’s been times in my career where, I mean, you can probably give us a little bit of neuroscientific backing here, Amy, but there have been times in my career where I definitely have had kind of the teach by humiliation tactic being implemented. I couldn’t I can still recall this tutorial at medical school where I was asked in front of the group to explain the the process of infection in malaria, and kind of the life cycle of the malaria insect and so forth. And I just remember being a bit taken aback when I started to write down the cycle and the processes on this board and and the the tutor at the time said, No, I want you to draw. I want to draw it. And I said, But I but I am. I’m writing down this cycle to know I want you to draw it. And he wanted me to draw the must draw and and, and I just, I remember thinking, I like I obviously, probably, you probably wouldn’t tell, with my skin color, but I was very red in the face, and I wanted the ground to swallow me up, because I just thought this is absolutely ridiculous, but this is what he wants me to do. So I did it, but, but I have to say, I haven’t forgotten about the process involved, and I’m not thinking, I’m not, I’m not advocating this tech, this tactic, but again, I guess it goes back to the emotion attached to that. But how can we replicate that? How can organizations replicate this? So we’re talking about the emotional kind of attachment to learning and how that can trigger and activate parts of our brain. But how can we practically do that in organizations without the humiliation, if possible, without the humiliation. Absolutely, I love that story.

 

Amy Brann  17:43

I don’t think, I don’t remember seeing your mosquito drawing, so I must have not been there at that. I

 

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  17:49

think you are in a different group, but I really wish you had been in my group, because a nice, sympathetic face in the audience would have been very helpful.

 

Amy Brann  17:58

Yeah, I wish I’d seen it.

 

Speaker 1  18:02

So the biggest, easiest

 

Amy Brann  18:06

pull that, I think, hook that organizations and individuals have got is the contribution that they can make. So you know that if you are not up to date on particular things, you might not be as effective in helping patients you know good new drugs, new treatment pathways come out, and if you’re oblivious to them, you ultimately, you may it’s possible people will die as a result of your lack of knowledge. It is possible most people in organizations don’t have that hook that they can use, but their work is important, and if, if we are working for an organization, we should be able to clarify the contribution that we’re making through our work in a way that is highly motivating to us. If we can’t, then it might be that the organization’s not the right fit, because we’re not engaged enough with what we’re doing. If we’re really engaged with what we’re doing, with why we’re doing it, and with the impact that we’re able to make, then anything we need to learn, whether it is the well mentioned AI that every organization I’ve spoken to is aware they want people to Up skill in or whether it’s upskilling in management skills or anything else, if you know your why and that’s Lighting you up, then it’s much easier to be self motivated to learn what we need to learn. A big challenge we hear is people saying, I’m not being developed enough. And I’ve got sympathies on both sides here, for the individuals that are feeling that way and for the organizations that are saying. Saying, Oh, but we’ve offered this, this and this, and we don’t really know what else we can do. And I think for me, it links back to a point you were making at the beginning, around reflecting and learning in the moment. So rather than the olden days, where we had to go on a training program in order to learn anything. Now, the opportunities to learn are all around us, and there is so much access. I think, I think the challenge is more, how do we not learn? Because every single day, we can be exposed to things or ask questions of people and reflect on what happens in ways that we are officially learning, and that’s all within an individual’s control. So if you are highly motivated, as you are in your career, if we can be in that space, then that should be what lights us up and motivates us and gets our amygdala nudging our hippocampus to make sure that we are paying attention and consolidating so that’s a non humiliating route in I think organizations have a responsibility when they’re asking you to Do particular trainings to try and position the need. And sometimes I think the way that that’s done or offered is poor. And actually, the number of times I’ve heard of people being told they need to do a training when they already know the content of it, which I think is just nonsensical, you’ve got to check what people know before starting to tell them the same stuff that they already know. Yeah, so that would be good if that could change. Now, there’s one thing that we haven’t mentioned that is really strongly evidence based for learning, for changing, for consolidating, for skill enhancement, and would probably require organization or mindset shift a little or individuals to be more proactive and in control of their day, but that is sleep. I don’t know. I mean, I presuming you do not give your trainees nap time after they have been listening to you about something falling you’re laughing. This doesn’t happen, does it yet? I mean,

 

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  22:30

yeah, there’s been times where they may be falling asleep in my tutorials, but that was not, you know, naps that I wanted them to have. No, you’re right. Amy, sleep is just so important, isn’t it? Our brain is processing so much all the time, and having good sleep is just so important to help us continue to process and learn. I mean, this is one of the biggest stresses I have at the moment with my five year old. You know, I get stressed in the evenings when he’s not going to bed, and I’m constantly saying, I can hear it now, and I’m constantly saying to him, come on, if you can’t sleep, how are you going to learn at school? How’s your brain going to have enough rest? And the more I say it, the less he wants to sleep. So it’s a, you know, it’s a bit of a battle at bedtime, as I’m sure a lot of you can relate to but yeah, it’s just so important, you know, he’s he’s not going to learn, he’s not going to be effective at retaining information if he’s not had enough rest. And so it’s just a real simple way of ensuring that we are going to be able to learn and continue to strive to learn in our jobs if we can just get enough rest. And another basics like minimizing how much coffee we consume. For example, little bit of caffeine is is fine, but too much is detrimental to our concentration. So there are basic things which, you know, I am guilty of not necessarily adhering to, because as soon as my son is down, I am, you know, reading a book or on on the telly or whatever, trying to have some downtime for myself, but actually prioritizing sleep is so important.

 

Amy Brann  24:06

In an ideal world, I would love people to be able to strategically nap. Studies have shown that a nap after exposure to new information helps with the consolidation we know that our brain replays information and consolidates it, which strengthen what are called memory traces in the brain, in the hippocampus, in the neocortex. And I love a nap, and will strategically nap because I have a lot of flexibility in how I work, and I’ll often wake up with fresh insight different state, and that’s really useful. Students, I’m hoping are on board with strategic napping these days, but I again, I just want all good everyone to be empowered to know how their brain works well, how. They can optimize their synaptic plasticity, which does involve using sleep intentionally. So yes, we need a good night’s sleep. That’s a non negotiable, and we know that people can struggle with that. And there’s help, various routes available for improving sleep if that’s a challenge. But then there’s also the and how do I structure my day? Like, what do I do after I’ve learned something? If we’re running training programs with people, I’ve encouraged people to nap. Just lie under that table. There’s no point in struggling through trying to keep your eyes open if you are actually exhausted, go away for an hour. Yes, you’ll miss that, but you’re not fully present anyway. And sometimes when I’m at international conferences, and there’s people that have flown in from Singapore and Hawaii and just all corners of the earth, and I can see, I can see the Japanese people that have like, they’ve not had any sleep, and so they’re, they’re nodding off in the middle of the group, and I just think, bless you guys, you would be much better off going, having a sleep, coming back and carrying on. So again, just making sure that it’s flagged so that we can start to try and make wiser decisions in our organizations, if we know how we work, and we can advocate for how our brains work, then the social expectations, professional expectations, hopefully can start to be changed. And if you’re tired, you sleep, and then you rejoin. And maybe the organizations need to think about how they’re organizing things to give people a rest before they need to then learn and engage and process information.

 

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  26:47

Yeah, that’s and I think that’s going to take a bit of a shift. So if it’s not practically feasible to be doing that right now, which it may may not be, it’s about kind of like, you say, structuring your day in a way that is going to be more efficient. So I know for sure at the end of a very long day, I mean, I don’t have, I definitely don’t have any capacity to nap in my job, but I know that at the end of a day, when I’m finished seeing all my face to face patients, and I’ve got a few hours worth of admin to do, blood results, letters, referrals, etc, if I have six referrals that need doing, and I’m absolutely shattered at the end of the day. If I was to plow on through and try to do those referrals at the end of the day, it might take me an hour. But if I was to say, Do you know what Jess, just draw a line here, go home, get refreshed, come back in the morning, a little bit earlier, then the same task would take me a quarter of the time because I’m feeling refreshed. So I think it’s also, you know, if it’s not kind of feasible to then have those breaks, which I think we would all love to have. I know some organizations do encourage it, but if it isn’t feasible, then then kind of be a bit more brutal and say to yourself, you know what the day is done. I need to, I need to switch off now and come back feeling fresh in the morning to tackle those same tasks, and it will take you far less time when you’re when your mind is rested and refreshed.

 

Amy Brann  28:07

Yeah, that’s a really good point, and it’s important that we recognize that it’s a marathon rather than a sprint in terms of organizational changes, again, we want people to feel individually equipped and recognizing that, yeah, nap time is not necessarily practical for the majority at this point, but when we’re learning things, doing all the other good stuff, and then hopefully making sure we’ve at least got enough sleep at night, time will will take us closer. Ah, so are there any other things linked to learning that you found personally helpful over the years?

 

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  28:57

Well, in medicine, there’s this phrase that where we learn early on, actually. And you may have, you may remember it, or you may have remember me saying it in my time and with my training, but see one Do One, Teach one,

 

Amy Brann  29:09

teach one idea, remember. So the idea

 

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  29:12

that you observe somebody doing something, then you do it yourself, and then you teach somebody else how to do it. And I think there is strength in that, you know that repetition, you know having to the best way I you know, what I say to my trainees, the best way that you can learn is to explain it to somebody else, because then you’ve truly understood the concept, and you’ve truly understood what’s going on in the body at that time. So I think repetition, explaining it to somebody else, all of these things are not difficult to necessarily achieve, but if you can incorporate those into your day, I think they’re very helpful. I

 

Amy Brann  29:55

totally agree, and I love that, because teaching helps to flush. Up the gaps. If someone asks you a question and you go, Oh, I’ve got no idea, then you know you haven’t fully understood something yet. And that’s gives us an opportunity for clarity. So yeah, See One, Do One, Teach One, and I don’t come across it in the same way that it is evident in medicine. So in other organizations, I don’t think it’s as normalized. I’m just running through the different companies we work with and but it could be, there are lots of things that could be done in that way. And I know the Johari Window is something that you’ve used in the past and quite liked as well, and certainly when we’ve been working with organizations helping people to increase their self awareness, that’s been quite a favored tool. So not scientific structure, but lots of amazing tools out there that then can help our brains to process and, in this instance, identify blind spots, but also you talked about the reflection, but also the talking things through with a friend who then can see see patterns as well and reflect those back to you coaching conversations if you’re fortunate enough to work with other people that have got those skills. I think, yeah, good, a good package for different ways to help the brain to learn new skills, things to be aware of, and practices to experiment with.

 

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  31:38

And I think the other thing stepping away from the individual and looking kind of more at the organizations, perhaps in terms of those in more influential positions. I think role modeling behaviors that we want to see is just so important, isn’t it? I mean, we I work in a practice where, when I first started, that started there as a trainee, it was common for all of the doctors to be working till very late in the night, and that was just kind of how everyone worked. And so it was just accepted that you would just be staying late, and that’s how we’ve always been. And with my trainees, they are a bit more boundaried, and they do want to achieve a better work life balance, and so they are being a little bit more, yeah, boundaried with their time and wanting to leave on time and not go beyond their contracted hours. And it’s really alien to me, because when I’ve trained, it’s always been the case that you just stay and you work until the job’s done. So there’s obviously some benefit in protecting yourself in that way as well. But I think when you are in an organization and you’re seeing people in certain positions modeling behaviors, it encourages you to do the same. And I think if we can encourage those that we work with to kind of be on the same page with us, then it can just benefit everyone in the whole team. Absolutely,

 

Amy Brann  33:07

the behavioral science indicates that the messenger, whoever’s conveying information, is hugely influential. And of course, we convey information in so many different ways, don’t we, so the non verbal role modeling that your colleagues have done in the past will be having a huge influence. It has big influences on culture, big influences on areas of focus, if, if you’re in one of these organizations that is encouraging the use of AI, the adoption, the experimentation, and you’ve got senior leaders that are talking badly about it, or frustratedly or not sharing any experiences at all, then that is going to be having an impact. So one of the most influential things we could do to make learning better and more accessible could be to start storytelling around these senior but also well respected individuals who are self motivated learners, who have got good stories to share, and that that would be an amazing step forward.

 

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  34:22

And I think that people don’t really realize how much they are potentially influencing others. I know that the other day, Amy, you’ll laugh at this, my son caught me at a bit of a stressful moment, and he he took my hands and he said, Mommy, take some deep breaths. Your emotions are like a roller coaster. They go up and they go down. And I thought he’s actually been listening to me. I didn’t realize that all of this stuff I’m trying to teach him to regulate his emotions, and he’s using it back at me, which is great in that moment. He also uses my discipline back at me, which is not so good. But you just don’t realize how much people. Around you, including your children, are taking in and and I think that was just, it was just a really funny moment for me, but it just goes to show there’s a lot being absorbed all the time. So if you’re in these positions where you’re influencing, potentially a large group of people, you do have to be mindful of how you’re coming across and how you’re portraying yourself, and that can feel like a lot of pressure at times as well. But I think if you’re aware of that, that’s the first step. Isn’t it being kind of having that insight and knowing that people are potentially hanging on your every word, and therefore you’ve got to be mindful about how you how you speak of things. Just having that awareness is important as well, isn’t it, absolutely

 

Amy Brann  35:40

and how beautiful to see your son learning through osmosis and then teaching his mommy the same lessons that have tried to be imparted to him. I think that’s a really uplifting and inspiring place to leave this if you have enjoyed looking at learning and what we can do to optimize this using what we know about how the brain works, then please share this episode with a friend or a colleague who might also find it helpful. It’s one of the best ways to help us grow and work towards a world where everyone is more aware of how to make our brains work. So make sure you’re following us on your preferred viewing or listening platform, so you’re the first to know when new episodes are delivered you.