Fueling Innovation: Habits to Spark Creativity and Ideas

Amy Brann  00:00

So why is it so easy to binge watch a TV show, but so hard to start on that important project? Why do some people seem naturally motivated, while others just struggle to get things done? And if my kid won’t clean their room, is it just stubbornness, or is there actual brain science behind it? Today, we are diving into the neuroscience of motivation, procrastination and persuasion. What’s happening in the brain when we want to do something versus when we don’t? How can we help our kids, our team, or even ourselves to take action, especially on the things we’d rather avoid? We’re going to explore the brain’s reward network. How emotions shape decision making and most importantly, the science backed strategies to boost motivation and help make getting things done feel easier. If you’ve ever wondered why some tasks feel effortless while others feel impossible, then this is the episode for you. Let’s get started.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  00:54

Oh Amy, I’ve often wondered this. So in terms of the challenges that we face with certain tasks. Why is it that there are some that we think we can tackle very easily and some which we struggle with to comprehend?

Amy Brann  01:11

Do you know, I think it is such a common challenge, isn’t it? And question, and I think it’s brilliant to take a pause and look at what actually sits behind it, because quite often, we can really label people negatively for stuff that is probably outside of their current control, so they might not realize what’s going on in their brain and how to course correct to enable them to do the things that they want to do. Basically, it’s not as fixed as we tend to think it is so what I want to do today could be different to what I want to do tomorrow. And part of that’s because we are, as you know, completely complex human beings, and there’s so many variables, and all of these variables can change our brain chemistry, and then can change our motivation and whether we want to do something, whether we feel we need to do something, all of which have different neural underpinnings. So some of the, I guess, some of the factors that are really influencing whether we’re desiring to do something or not, links to the reward prediction process that’s constantly going on in our brain, we’re evaluating the potential rewards of actions. So if we anticipate that an activity will yield a positive outcome, then the reward system in the brain will be activated, and we will probably experience a sense of motivation. But if we’re expecting that a result will be negative or less rewarding, or less rewarding than we hope, then aversion mechanisms are engaged, and this is so fundamental. And I think parents switch on to this early on. And sometimes, like not so helpful systems have been developed as a result, but other times, really helpful systems have been developed. There’s a couple more, and then I’ve got a question about whether you’ve ever experienced this as a mother. So our past experiences really help to shape and inform our reward prediction processes. So anything that in our past has influenced specific tasks or types of tasks, or tasks in relation to particular people, they shape our desires and aversions. And if we’d have positive experiences in the past, obviously, then we’ll build up more of a desire to repeat particular actions, and negative stimulates the other and then our current emotional state, which really just means, oh, what kind of playing field are we dealing with here? Because it’s so variable, but our current emotions obviously modulate that the activity of different brain regions evolved in the reward and the aversion, and therefore can really make the difference when it comes to whether or not we’re motivated. So Jess, you have a small person in your life, some of the questions were sometimes asked around, how do I get my kids to do stuff that they don’t want to do? Do you have any experience of this, or is your child a saint and always does exactly what you want

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  04:14

when you want? Oh, as much as I love my son, no, he is not a saint, and he doesn’t do what, what I want him to do. First of all, I just want to say it’s really reassuring, isn’t it, to hear that this isn’t fixed, because I think we can fall into into easy habits just because we’ve done it so many times in a certain way, it doesn’t mean that’s the right way to do it. So it’s really reassuring for me to hear that these things can be unpicked, and we can change the trajectory of how, how this is going to go. But yes, in terms of my child, I mean, I’ve read a lot of books about parenting, as I’m sure a lot of us have, in order to try and navigate this mind field. And you know, you think, okay, so terrible twos and. Then you’ve got the threes, but then there’s the fours and fives and the sixes. And you think, hang on a second. It’s not ending. So it’s a continuous process. And I just, when I speak to other parents, you know, no matter how old your child gets, you just end up shifting the challenge to that different age category. So I don’t think it’s ever going to end. So I think it’s really positive and reassuring to know that if we can develop some tools at this point that can then be taken forward throughout our child’s life, then we can just continuously utilize and adapt and continuously use these tools as they grow with us. But yes, in terms of some of the tactics that I employ. I mean, my child is definitely one that needs to be active all the time, who’s the epitome of ants in your pants. He’s on the go non stop. And at first I thought, oh, is, you know, is it because he’s a boy or, you know, he does have those testosterone surges. But I think some kids just are like that, and some are, you know, a bit more calm and and sedate. And so I think with with my son in particular, I definitely try to incorporate something physical, some kind of activity, some play, trying to encourage his creative side, to help get him motivated. There’s no point me sitting him down and saying, Okay, so we’re going to calmly sit and discuss this particular topic and and see you know whether it sparks your interest. No, I have to be very stealthy about how i So, for example, I mean, it’s the classic of putting your toys away, isn’t it? One day, I picked them up from nursery, and I was a little bit late by a couple of minutes, but I came into the door whether their playroom was and I saw him putting toys away in the in the toy box area. And I said, What’s he doing? And they’re saying the the nursery staff member said, Oh, he’s just putting the toys away like he normally does. What do you mean, like he normally does. So then I thought, well, if you can do it at nursery, then you can do it at home. But there was some kind of obstacle in his way about doing it at home, obviously. So I think I then thought, well, what can I do? How can I be creative here? So I turned it into a game, and I think that has carried me through many kind of potential tantrums, you know, trying to make it into a game, make it creative, make it interesting, something that’s going to appeal to his, you know, things that he enjoys to do. So he likes the competitive streak and things. So if we say, who can tidy up the toys the quickest, or who can grab the blue Duke Blue blocks and put them away first, anything that’s just going to make it a bit more competitive, and then he’s all over it. And I think the same can be said for, you know, when you’re in your workplace environment. I’m not saying that we need to always have that competitive edge, because we’re working collaboratively and we’re a team, but I think if you can spark someone’s interest in something that internally, you know, naturally motivates them, then that’s the way forward, isn’t it?

Amy Brann  08:04

It’s exactly that. And I love the fact that you recognize that it does carry through. Because as children, yes, there are differences to adults, but there are the same brain mechanisms. Yes, they are still orchestrating and scaffolding is changing during Well, you know, until we’re early adults, but Dopamine is a huge driver. So if you’re activating the feel good, the reward mechanism, the reinforcer of behavior, neurotransmitter dopamine, then whatever stage of life, that is a strategy we can utilize and with kids. Of course, play and fun is great, but actually, a lot of adults are missing out on Play and fun. And we’re working with a global organization that could be considered quite dry in some respects, they’ve put fun into their strategy for the next year because they’re like, Yeah, you know what? We’re lacking a bit of fun round here. And I don’t, I don’t know whether, well, I think it must be connected to the culture and the world. And you know, the time that we’re in that that we’re recognizing actually fun can be good, and it can provide a competitive advantage. It can certainly help people to engage. And the other thing that you mentioned that I think is brilliant strategy for adults to take as well is almost the pairing. So if you had something you needed to, for example, talk to your son about, but you wouldn’t do it in just that way. And the idea of, let’s sit down, let’s have a serious conversation about this. Would immediately not light up his dopamine response reward network would not be leaning into this conversation. So you paired it with something that would do that, and we did exactly the same thing with times tables when my daughter was little, the idea of sitting down and going through times tables no interest in at all. Yeah, but how about we do some quizzes on the trampoline, on the times tables? Yeah, let’s do it. So pairing something that you are not so keen on, possibly with the thing that you are more keen on. I’m sure I’ve shared this before, but my go to pairing for exercise is normally, I get to watch a trashy TV show, so long as I’m lifting some weights or doing some Pilates, no Pilates, I try and make sure I’m connected to my body, but it’s got enough of a reward mechanism pull already. But brilliant. So yeah. So pairing, incorporating the play, the creativity for kids, breaking things down into manageable steps. I think that’s one of for children and adults that can really derail motivation when it looks too big, because then effectively what’s happening is the the aversion is being turned on because of fear and not being able to see how it can be done, so that overwhelm is going to be a barrier to the motivation or even starting and then, and then positive reinforcement is a classic one for children and for adults, and we absolutely have to use positive reinforcement, but we also, I think, need to be careful to not just be too generic, so that it loses its impact, and also equipping individuals to sort of find that intrinsic activation as well. So it’s not just they’re waiting for the extrinsic all the time. I know there’s some quite comical sketches of perhaps it’s very, very stereotypical. So I apologize for anyone who’s offended, but a woman doing a whole host of jobs during a day, thanklessly, just cracking on getting some jobs done, and then a man emptying the dishwasher and almost proclaiming, look empty dishwasher. Expecting that positive reinforcement. It’s obviously, it’s funny, but for some people, it’s those scenarios are challenging, and so just making sure that we balance our need for or our conditioning to expect extrinsic recognition with intrinsic recognition. And I don’t know whether it’s the same with dogs as children, because with dogs, you sort of wean them off that positive biscuit treat reinforcement, don’t you? Is it the same?

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  12:35

I’m not. I’m not a person with pets, I wouldn’t know, but definitely my son, I know that positive reinforcement continues to play a big part in our communication. And you know, you see deliverable results. And, you know, I’m not very good at always doing this, but it’s about then offering them praise for things that you know, behaviors that you want to see more of. You know, oh, well, I really love your I love how you were so polite there. Hunter, you know, you see it in the workplace all the time, don’t you as well? You know, it’s not that we want our egos massage, but actually feeling valued and having some positive praise when you least expect it, or when it’s not really, it’s not really a moment for it. You know, there’s no, there’s no reason to give that positive praise, really. But actually, if somebody feels valued in the team, they’re more likely going to strive to reach the targets that you want them to. And I think a lot of the time when I hear colleagues grumbling, it comes down to the fact that they don’t feel valued. So it doesn’t take much to offer a bit of positive praise, and then people feel intrinsically motivated to want to do better. There’s no, there’s no kind of tangible reward. You know, they’re not getting a bonus necessarily for that action, but they are feeling valued, and they’ve had some positive praise and and it feels good. So, you know, we’ll see the neuroscience behind all of that. I mean, I’m preparing for this particular podcast and reading everything that you know, all the science behind it. It’s actually, it’s quite, it’s quite fascinating. You know, what’s involved?

Amy Brann  14:14

It is, and I think so some research I did some time ago that contrasted more of a generic praise with a recognition of a person. Our English words, perhaps don’t always do justice to what sits behind, but when someone feels seen, feels acknowledged, feels recognized, you know all of those sort of synonyms. I’m seeing you. I’m seeing what you’re doing, and I’m grateful for that, but I’m appreciating you, rather than just what you do for me that seems to stimulate the brain in quite different ways and much more beneficial ways when we really see the person. So I know you know if you were talking to your son or if you’re talking to a. Colleague even, and saying, you know, I appreciate how you handled that patient, because it’s going to make it much easier for me next time I need to see them like you’ve been really comprehensive, for example, and you’ve done the follow ups in a really helpful, thorough way, linking it to you see that they’ve done that, and what it means to you that it’s going to make your life easier next time, and that you’re grateful for that is very difficult for great day’s work today, or even just Thanks for seeing that that patient, it takes a few moments longer, but what it activates in the brain seems substantially Different and substantially more beneficial, and as you say, Absolutely, then one of the best ways we can enable someone to be motivated, and this is really undervalued, actually, is to reduce juice, any threat responses, any high stress situations, because if we’ve got a team member that might be avoiding particular tasks, which isn’t always uncommon. What can we do to help them? And we’ve got the classic things by setting the clear and achievable goals we’ve got, fostering the growth mindset we’ve got, you know, do they need specific time management techniques, all of which are good and foundational, but the build on top of that is, do they feel safe to do this? Because if they don’t, you know, for example, if something doesn’t seem achievable manageable, then of course, they’re not going to be able to dive in and start, because their brain won’t let them. So that’s where it then comes back to managers. Responsibility is so much about setting the scene and inviting them to pay attention to the things that are going to enable their brain to be in the best state to then deliver what they want to deliver. I mean, you’ve, you’ve, you’ve worked with your trainees, different trainees, over the years. Have you noticed anything in the workplace that relates to this?

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  17:04

No, I think a lot of the time, which is understandable. Trainees may want to shy away from some of the more challenging cases, or they may book follow up, follow up appointments, which are potentially a bit more simple, but just take up that that slot so that they can have a bit more of an easy run of the morning. And I totally understand and appreciate that, but that and that. But what I try to encourage them to do is to see how that is not beneficial for them in the long run, you know, by kind of grabbing the ball by the horns and those challenging patients that are giving them real clinical, you know, real clinical challenges. Or, you know, socially, there’s a lot going on, and it takes up a lot more time. For example, they just need to embrace those cases, because at the end of the day, it comes back to the, you know, that buzzword, the growth mindset, doesn’t it? If we aren’t faced with these challenges, we’re not going to develop. And I often get them to record their consultations, which they hate. They absolutely hate it. And I remember hating it as well, because nobody wants to be recorded, and nobody wants to then watch themselves do something not very well. And I watch them consult, and I say to them, yeah, we’re going to kind of watch them together. So pick out some good ones, let me know which ones aren’t so good, and maybe we can park those and then I lull them into this false sense of security, and then I don’t watch the good ones and I watch the bad ones, or the ones that they perceive didn’t go so well, because those are the exactly the ones that we need to watch. You know, if you if you have that insight that something hasn’t gone well, then that’s where we need to learn from. You know, otherwise, we’re just going to be very comfortable coasting along thinking we’re doing a great job. But actually, the challenges and the adversities that we face in the workplace or in life are the things that we learn the most from.

Amy Brann  19:00

I totally agree. And then it’s that biting point of learning which is so useful. I wonder whether another benefit of you taking that approach with them, although it sounds harsh and word may spread that that, yeah, this, this is the Jesse treatment, but it’s, it’s got really good groundings, because if they face what they think are some of their worst experiences, and they learn to scaffold around it, and, you know, take what they need to and they know that overall it was actually okay, then that reduces fear. It’s almost like a kind of gradiated exposure therapy that then trains their brain that it’s safe. Maybe you should do it while they’re in a cold bucket of ice as well, to really, like, you know, bring out the most you can from the experience. But yeah, that then would serve their motivation networks. In the future, they’d be more. Likely to lean into something because you’ve reduced the fear around it. What? They’re very clever.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  20:04

Jesse, well, they do. They do, forgive me, I have to say, but they always find it beneficial, and it’s always in a safe. You know, I ask permission. Obviously, I wouldn’t force them to do that like but it’s in a safe. It’s in a safe space. And actually, what I’m reminding them is that I’m there to support them, and whilst they’re in their kind of trainee year, and they’re under my wing, things can go wrong, but they’ll be supported, and they’ll have somebody who’s got their back and will be able to point out ways in which they could improve. Because actually, once they’re once they’ve flown the nest, you know, they’re autonomous practitioners. They’re on their own, pretty much. And actually, we need to iron out those issues before we let them go loose on the public. So it may seem harsh and it may seem like a bit of an unfair way to trick them, but actually, it’s all done in a safe space, and we have a very nice culture in our practice, one of safety, one of compassion. And again, it always comes back to that, doesn’t it always comes back to having that kindness and that non judgment. And they know that even if they make a mistake, they are not going to be, you know, penalized for it, unless, of course, it’s very serious. But then that’s going to kind of make them feel a bit more braver to take on those challenges in the first place.

Amy Brann  21:27

And I’m sure the state of bravery has some overlapping neural underpinnings to the state of motivation. So it’s got movement to it hasn’t it as a state to be brave, to be courageous. So that would be helpful too. So it’s brilliant to have looked a bit about how we support children with motivation, how that links quite closely to how we can support adults in a team. What about then, for individuals themselves? We are aware of increasing rates of diagnosis around people with ADHD, some people have a belief that sustaining motivation being a starter finisher can be difficult, or even getting motivated to do some things can be difficult. And I think I’m often asked, you know, how do I reduce procrastination? How do I just get going? And I found it really interesting to talk in depth with some people with ADHD who feel that they have no motivation to do certain things. And I know this is a very narrow case study, but I think it aligns with some of the wider research that a lot of people can be very motivated to do some things, but may not then be able, be able, yet to motivate themselves to do other things. And I guess the real challenge there is that, or sort of my coaching to others has been, we’ve got to uncover your motivational drivers and how you can package something in your mind so that you are we know you can be attracted to this and you can be motivated to do this. How do we map that across to that? Because you want to, want to do that, but you don’t yet. So it’s almost a reframing exercise, as far as I can see, but for an aspect and approach a tool, as it were, and then mindfulness and self compassion has got good evidence behind it, and that’s something that, again, you use quite heavily. You encourage that in others, as well as doing it yourself. Is that right?

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  23:47

Yeah, I do. I do that a lot, and I think sometimes it’s a really nice, gentle way to bring up a topic which you may feel uncomfortable about as a senior, for example. So if I’ve observed a trainee consult in a certain way, rather than perhaps pointing out specifically what I think they’ve done wrong, I gently explore the feelings that they may have had in that particular scenario. And you know, I make observations. So for example, I may say, oh, did you notice how when you said that particular statement, the patient shifted in their seat and squirmed a little bit, and you’re making these physical observations about the non verbal body language, which can then, through no effort on my part, it then opens up the trainees thoughts, and it allows them to explore the moment themselves, and I think having those emotional links, which we’ve talked about in a previous podcast as well, but having those emotional links and attachments to income, to these kind of encounters, can help, really, to consolidate learning.

Amy Brann  24:55

Yep, yeah, absolutely, build a much stronger memory tray. Space which is more likely to be accessed again in the future. And the, you know, reflective practice, I know, I know you build it in. It is built into your work, but it’s not built into everyone’s work. And you know, hearing the thoroughness that your profession has, you know, as part of its normal structure and and the necessity of that, because medicine is so complex, and you are dealing these days with even more complex cases, you’ve got to you’ve got to be sharp, and you basically every opportunity to learn is gold dust, isn’t it? Because you never know when you’ll come back to it. And I know I’ve raised things with you, and you go, Ah, well, 15 years ago, I had this patient who had this quote, and I’m like, Oh, my word. But there’s no way you would have been able to recall that had you not scaffolded for your brain to enable that memory trace to stick so that 15 years in the future, when you’re friends, tapping you up for insight again, you can, you can bring it forward, but that’s an opportunity available To everyone, and with everything that can that that that reflection deepens the memory, but and that self compassion gives you the opportunity to try and part of the barrier with motivation is almost that seesaw that we need to dial up the anticipated reward in our Brain for whatever reason why, whatever we’re getting this, we can anticipate the positive reward. We need to dial that up and we need to dial down the negative, which often is fueled by our self talk. So if we think that we’re not going to be able to do something, or we’re not good enough to do something, or if we’ve got those sort of big identity type pillars that say I’m not the sort of person that can finish something, or I’m not the sort of person that can do admin, well, pretty much there’s no chance of you being motivated to do it. So that’s the piece of the puzzle in that scenario that needs to be changed. And it’s a whole process. So it really does then require the step by step, ideally the support. It can be from a friend, it can be from a colleague, it can be from anyone. I’d still probably lean towards it being a human rather than an AI, for reasons we can go into another time. But that could really, really help with getting motivated on particular things. And I think if I would go on, sorry, Jessica,

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  27:44

no, no, I completely agree with you. And I think that sometimes it’s it’s far easier to adopt that kind of negative mindset, because that’s what you’re used to doing. But even if for a day, you just practice, kind of flipping it on its head and trying to take away the positives. You know, you could definitely see the difference in in how your day then pans out and how you then tackle the similar challenges again in the future.

Amy Brann  28:09

Yeah, you could. You could do a perceptual positioning exercise to help you get into that day. But I the impact of, what if I just did anything I set my mind to today that’s within your capabilities. But for example, if you didn’t feel like you’re the sort of person that can get motivated by admin, what if I just did some admin? I don’t have to feel motivated to do it, but I just did some admin that would set up a feedback mechanism in the brain, and it could be really interesting. But I think the core takeaway I’d love people to go away with is to know that motivations can be altered, and even your identity, from that perspective, can be altered. So working out how you work and how you can work with your existing drivers and frames and narratives and all of the rest of it to enable you to do what you want to do is possible, but it is a process. It’s not something that likely just changes tomorrow or sticks that said it also can. Oh, so if you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, then please share it with a friend or colleague who might find it helpful. It’s one of the best ways to help us grow and reach more people like you.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  29:32

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