Amy Brann  00:00

Why does life still feel different? You’re not imagining it. From how we work to how we think covid has reshaped the world and us with it, as we start to build back a new normal, many of us are asking, have I changed too much to go back, and what am I building towards now? So in today’s episode, we’re going to unpack what’s shifted beneath the surface, from the science of cognitive fatigue to why younger generations are completely re imagining ambition, success and connection. We’ll explore how post pandemic living is challenging our old frameworks, and what tools we need to navigate a world that’s still finding its feet. If you’re feeling like the old rules no longer fit, or wondering what your next chapter looks like, then this one’s for you. Thanks.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  00:47

Amy, yeah. I mean, the pandemic, it did change so much, didn’t it? Some, you know, some things for the better, and others, possibly not so good. But what are the common themes that you’ve heard emerging relating to work post covid?

Amy Brann  01:01

There is a lot, a lot of people, I think, are still using covid as quite a benchmark of before and after. People are saying, Why does work still feel so exhausting? Even though we’re back to normal and have been for a long time, I feel like I’ve changed, but I don’t know what to do with that shift. How normal is this is a lot of questions around different generations. You know, oh, younger generations seem to have such different values and around work and around well being as people questioning how they balance ambition with a sense that they want more from life outside of work, or people that don’t want to go back to how things were before, or questioning why it feels harder to focus or care about things in the same way compared to what it did before pandemic, and of course, questions around resilience. Do you? Do you notice a difference?

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  02:02

It’s such an emotive topic, isn’t it, the pandemic affected me on a professional level, on a personal level, I think that people have tried to protect themselves for a future another pandemic, there are systems in place that the pandemic uncovered, which were not unhelpful and and you know, changes which had to be made very quickly in order to cope with the new norm. And in healthcare in particular, you know, overnight, practices had to completely overhaul how they worked. And as a practice, we were lucky in some ways that we adopted a certain appointment system that you know was less impactful on us when covid hit hit but it was, yeah, the impact was just incredible on everyone, colleagues and patients. And as a practice, we tried, very early on, to identify the impact that that was going to have, and made a conscious effort to mitigate the risk of, you know, emotional depletion. Essentially, not only was it both physically a demanding time if you got covid yourself, or if you had family members who had covid and all of the complications associated with that in terms of then seeing people and having that emotional human contact, but just the practical nature of working. I mean, we tried to enforce kind of socially distanced morning coffee breaks, because what we were finding was that, you know, morale was low. The way we were working had changed so much that we were all trying to adjust. And actually what we needed, the most important thing that we needed was some some human interaction. So at 11am whatever you were doing, obviously emergencies aside, whatever you were doing at that time, we would all socially distance ourselves in our waiting room, which was closed to the public at that time, and we would all sit with a cup of coffee and and just have conversations and have contact with one another. Again, that was that was one of the biggest, biggest things and and in a way, it was something that we then carried forward for a bit longer post pandemic, and with all the the rules lifting and some of the restrictions lifting, because it all forced us to just have a moment in the morning where we could just, you know, relax a little bit. And I wish we carried it on. I think again, life got busy and we fell into old habits, unfortunately. But you know, having that very stressful time was a disaster in terms of, you know, our concentration, our focus, having this emotional fatigue and being emotionally depleted in the kind of job that we do is not ideal. You know, we have. To be trying to maintain a certain level of resilience in order to help other people. Yeah, really tricky time for us all.

Amy Brann  05:10

So during the pandemic, it will be reasonable to assume that there was extended stress exposure to especially medics and many other people as well. We know that that can lead to disruption in the HPA axis. We know that it can negatively affect the hippocampus. We can see atrophying. We know that that can affect our attention and motivation, our emotional regulation of you. Said, so if that all happened during the pandemic, and that was sort of an extended period, unless it’s possible that all of that repaired without any intention, and it just, you know, it did repair over time, but it’s possible that it didn’t, isn’t it as well, is that it’s possible that some people continue to experience a high level of stress and actually post covid either whether they had, they had covered themselves, or the experience of The pandemic might mean that they’re continuing to experience some cognitive fatigue or emotional drain.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  06:27

I mean, there’s a lot that we don’t truly yet understand. But yes, we know about post covid kind of symptoms and the impact of having covid itself, but actually, from the point of view of just experiencing and living that new normal for people it it was pretty horrendous. You know, overnight we were having to overall overhaul how we were interacting with one another. And, you know, I mean, I was lucky enough not to have a child during that time. You know, my my son was born in 2019 and I just come off of maternity leave, and then the pandemic hit in 2020 but you know, I had such such sympathy for those that were, you know, pregnant and also having babies during the pandemic, because they were so isolated. And same goes for some of our more elderly patients. You know, they are so heavily reliant on that social contact, that visitor. You know, whether it be the cleaner, the window cleaner, the the person who comes and helps with their shopping, or, you know, all of those little social interactions that keep them going in their day, you know, all of a sudden they were gone. So of course, the impact is going to be sustained. Of course people are going to have some not very nice memories of that time. And therefore, of course, we’re going to have possibly some element of kind of post traumatic stress from the entire situation. So I think it’s something that we’ll never forget, and nor should we, in some ways, because what we need to do is arm ourselves and protect ourselves for future incidents which may be similar or present similar challenges.

Amy Brann  08:14

Yes, so Well, it’s almost a separate topic, isn’t it, to look at what that might look like sticking with some of the challenges we know people are raising generational shifts in values and identity. I’m hearing from across a huge range of different industries for at least three years now that there’s a belief that younger people value things differently to older people, and that that’s impacting the choices that they make and even their perceived work ethic. And I mean, I was, I was part of a really fascinating discussion with Uli Urban Land Institute that brought together some senior leaders and some leaders that were younger. So room full of leaders but different ages, and it was actually so mixed. So some people’s perception was, oh, the younger ones, they won’t want to stay behind after work. They will want to shoot right off, because they think that their well being is so important, and that means that they can’t put in the extra hours. But that it wasn’t the case that it was polarized like that at all in this room, and this was, you know, one obviously example out of many, but the perceptions seem to have changed. I think,

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  09:45

Oh, I completely agree. I mean, I think when you look at the different contexts and the different kind of scenarios here, I mean, I had trainees who were minding their own business, rotating through their various jobs every four months they would change. Age, and all of a sudden they were being drafted back into hospital posts that they thought they would they were done with. You know, these are people who are training, these are professional doctors who are training to be a GP, and all of a sudden they’re being pulled back into hospital posts such as Amy and and medical posts because of shortages of staff, but because the pandemic was so impactful and and then coming into general practice, you see a definite shift in their mentality. And I kind of don’t blame them. You know, they have a lot more they place a lot more importance on work life balance and their emotional well being, more so than I ever did as a trainee. I know that for sure. And obviously, yes, I stayed well for the benefit of my patients, because if I’m not well, then I can’t look after others. But I don’t think upon reflection, I ever prioritize this truly for my own benefit, like I prioritized it in some ways, for patient benefit, but not for my own benefit. So I think it’s a tricky one, because we also do find that being in the camp of the older GP generation, where we, you know, we we worked over and beyond our contracted hours. In some cases, it can seem, I guess, resentment can breed a little bit with the newer generation saying, Oh, well, I don’t want to work beyond my contracted hours. But actually, perhaps we need to change the narrative to protect our future workforce, so that our patients will be safer and well looked after by happy, healthy, well balanced individuals who prioritize exactly what we’re trying to sell people what you know we’re trying to tell people, you need to look after yourselves, be healthy, have this balance, and yet we’re not practicing it ourselves. So I think the pandemic did shift our I guess, shift our mindset in terms of, then prioritizing ourselves better, and then, as a result, fostering this kind of ethos of balance and well being. But I can see where friction can sometimes arise between the different generations I definitely can, you know, and I am guilty of in my less resilient moments thinking, oh well, it wasn’t like that in my day. And I just think, oh my gosh, that’s exactly what I used to hear from consultants and senior colleagues when I was a trainee. And here I am saying exactly the same thing, but I think the pandemic was just so, yeah. I mean, it was, it was so life altering, and so life changing, and so I don’t blame the younger generation for wanting to take more care of themselves.

Amy Brann  12:36

Now, essentially, everyone went through a significant or significant multiples life experiences, didn’t they? And it would be weird to think that that didn’t shape our brains in some way. And as with all experiences, it can shape brains differently depending on how we narrate things, other experiences, memories that will influence how then the current situation is coded. So, yeah, I like what you’ve said in terms of being open, open, and recognizing that these things will have had an impact and and look curiously at, okay, well, where are we now? And also whether it’s healthy or helpful? Because if our values have shifted and they are then linked to a really unhealthy setup, that’s one thing. But actually, if, if people are shifted to look after themselves more, and we recognize, you know, part of the burden to the NHS is really high stress levels, then leaded to a bunch of other things, which then leads to a bunch of health challenges. You know, actually, that there’s an argument that there’s trying to be part of the solution there.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  13:56

And I think also, you know, in order to develop this empathy for one another, we have to be open to having these conversations and listening to one another. Yes, there are a lot of similarities that we all shared in going through the pandemic and going through that experience, but there are some things which are going to be very unique to certain individuals. You know, my dad ended up in hospital, quite unwell with covid, but I was one of the lucky ones, where he made it out and he, you know, he he survived it, but he was surrounded by people in his Bay who he was developing these relationships with and having conversations with on a daily basis, and then the next day they were gone. And you can only just imagine the impact that would have had on the family. So people are going to have very unique experiences, but unless we lend an empathetic ear, pause actually, like you say, curious and engaged and listen, we’re never going to hear that side of things, and we’re therefore not going to generate this ethos of empathy within the team and. Then resentment will brew and continue to brew.

Amy Brann  15:06

Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. But you know, you say the impact on the families of those who passed away, but also your dad, you know to be, to literally be building relationships with people one day and then then be gone the next it you know the fear that that could evoke, I imagine would evoke in me, and you know all of those thoughts, but you’re really, you know, like you are a lot of the times. But he’s not a trained medic, and hasn’t had all this experience. But to be surrounded by people who are then dying is is very impactful and and has a range of different effects on people. Okay? I mean, we’ll link to this sort of post traumatic growth. There are really challenging times that people go through, and for a huge variety of reasons, we internalize those differently. So again, we want to be really careful not to, not to make anyone who does suffer from mental health challenges or burnout wrong or bad or wholly responsible. There are things that we can do, the majority of us can do that may help, but they don’t. They don’t. They don’t vaccinate us the way a vaccine typically does. We are not completely protected against it’s not like the whooping cough vaccine I might still get. It might not be so bad. Well, that’s my, my take on a whooping cough vaccine. Things may have changed since I had it as a child, but what are some of the things that we can do if, if challenge strikes. And this is relevant, not just, obviously, for post pandemic, any challenges, some of the things I’m aware of is guided journaling. So how we pick through the story that we’re part of can be really helpful, especially if we were to take it, you know, take the challenge of writing it with a POS through a positive lens. There are absolutely times for negative journaling and letting anything that comes up come out. But I wonder whether sort of that, those rose tinted glasses journaling might be quite helpful for some people.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  17:19

Yeah, I suspect it probably, probably would be. I mean, obviously we mindful not to, not to, then ignore lessons that need to have been learned, of course. But yes, absolutely. Journaling is a great way to kind of help kind of process things that have gone on in your in your brain and just being reflective. I mean, there’s various tools and CBT or ACC Acceptance and Commitment Therapy to help encourage building that flexibility around your site, the psychology of things. But I mean, I think the pandemic, you know, really pushed us all to our limits, and you know, key workers in particular, but all of us. And so I think a, it’s important to be in tune with ourselves, to recognize these potential symptoms and signs of of burnout, because, as we know it, can be very subtle in its onset, and then B, be brave enough to tackle it head on with, with the use of certain tools, for example, and things like journaling. And you know, if it’s not your cup of tea, well, give it a go. You never know. Yeah, it proved to be helpful.

Amy Brann  18:32

Yeah, my first sort of touch point with Acceptance and Commitment Therapy was I’d looked at the research and I knew that it was delivering fantastic results in lots of different scenarios, so I wanted to explore it further. But some of the exercises really feel like then they’re missing the point from a pain perspective. So I looked at it to support with some of the arthritic pain that I experienced, and I really didn’t like it, but I persevered, because I knew the research showed that it was good, but it really does challenge the way that you think about things, and I know that if the current way you’re thinking about things is leading to undesirable results. And of course, we need to be challenged and we need to explore difference. And there have been some, some really positive takeaways, I guess that I’ve extracted, but it didn’t feel comfortable. So I almost want to reassure people that sometimes it doesn’t feel good to explore Okay. Another big topic that people often raise is this hybrid work situation, and a guy I really respect, who runs internal comms at a large bank, shared that in a hybrid work, or remote working, was one of his biggest current challenges. You know, people were reluctant to come back. To the office after covid, and from his perspective, he said, especially the young ones, especially the people starting out in their career, he says, We just can’t role model to them and teach them on the job as well if they are at home compared to if they’re in the office, and he wants to build relationships with them, make sure that they’re connected, have got a sense of belonging, are osmotically taking in the culture. And his take was that it was really hard to do if people are remote. Yeah.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  20:37

I mean, I guess depending upon the industry that you work in your role, could exclusively be remote, or it could have a bit of a combination. But I can see why that would be difficult if that’s all you’ve ever known. Nobody likes change. Why would you why would you change what how you’re working? You know, I mean working from home, remote, working obviously less of an option for me, for obvious reasons, but the pandemic did bring about some technological changes in the system, which enabled us to work slightly differently, so video consults and and things like that. But for me, as I kind of agree with what he’s saying. You know, the the human interaction, the social interaction, and was incredibly cathartic for, you know, both patients and staff. I guess there’s, there’s got to be a balance. I mean, I think that there are other reasons why remote working could be beneficial for kind of family life, for example. But I mean, what your thoughts on companies, companies adopting the very rigid stance that some of them do about forcing people back into the office, I think it’s hard

Amy Brann  21:49

from in the early days, when people would ask me about working from home, I would always say that if it’s done intentionally, it can be A really good thing. So I think there can be lots of benefits to working at home, and there can be lots of benefits to working in person. And if it were all done intentionally, with the right scaffolding, the right expectations set up, then I think it could be the best of both worlds. And I was really excited about that side of the pandemic and what that might mean for the future, and then when people had almost been trusted to work hard from home, and then were being dragged back to the office, and it was being mandated, but There wasn’t the transparency of why I think that’s problematic. I think anytime you’re asking for change without some rationale, we know from lots of experiments that that’s just not going to work as well as it could. I think the argument that people aren’t as innovative when they’re at home is often like, lacks the granularity that it could have. So actually, people can be very innovative if working remotely. But again, it just depends on how you’ve got it set up. A person’s brain is the same brain whether they’re in the office or whether it’s at home, but the influences on it are different, and therefore, then the states, the networks, and what you’re able to get from it could be different, but intentionality, like, I would love a world where different organizations maybe, like, if it’s really important, I think it should be evidence based, rather than just leader preference. But if it’s, if there are organizations where you have to be in the workplace, then people will self select, and for some people, that might be absolutely what they want. And as you’ve said, there are other reasons, other benefits for working hybrid or remotely at different seasons for different people. So could that be accommodated? You know, could, could we then really have different organizations that allow people to contribute in different ways, and allow different people to contribute? Because, again, remember, with an awareness of diversity, there might be some people that will only be able to be included if they can work remotely, and we, if we’ve just got a real blanket, no, then, especially after the pandemic, like it was, it was easier to have a blanket no before, but now, can you really justify a blanket No? And, and I don’t know that I’ve seen that certainly not got the neuroscience to say, no, absolutely. People should be either doing this or doing that. Because, like, the normal thing with when you look at the neuroscience is, well, it really depends. There is no absolute this or that. So I couldn’t endorse an absolute at this point. I don’t think,

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  24:53

and I really, yeah, I mean, I really don’t envy organizations, because people are so different. You know, we’re all so. Unique. And, you know, I found that certain individuals, I mean, I find it now, actually, if I’m signing somebody off work, for example, either due to mental health struggles or other medical problems, I look at the individual patient, and I have that discussion with them about whether having time off is beneficial for them or not. Obviously physical factors aside, some people find that they get more anxious after being away for too long and and that’s detrimental to them. To be off for too long, they actually have to kind of get back on the horse, as it were. So in an ideal world, we would have a tailor based approach for each individual, but of course, not very realistic in large organizations. I appreciate that.

Amy Brann  25:44

Well, yes and no. You know, one of the HR directors I spoke to, and this is a really common type challenge, is actually they had someone that was never fully bounced back after the pandemic, mentally and is currently pregnant and experiencing mental health challenges, and the HR person had spent 45 minutes on the phone trying to soothe, support, help, and really didn’t exactly know what to do this this lady was in a pickle and needed more scaffolding and support than the HR manager perhaps could do. She wanted to be signed off, and had been signed off, but the HR managers really wanted her to just come back in, and felt that, look, if you come in, we can support you better, and we can, we can help more, which I think in some ways, links to resilience in this era of uncertainty and resilience remains a buzzword and still a desire of many organizations. We do see brain differences in those that are currently exhibiting resilience versus those that are not often to do with the dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex, other regions too, but that’s our main contender. I guess, some of the most effective approaches, I think, for people to be aware of and further explore is our cognitive reappraisal. We talk about this a lot. It’s so influential. We are the gatekeepers for how the information goes in. As managers, you can cognitively reappraise narratives for others. Whether or not they stick, is another matter, but you can do that. So can leaders look at the psychological flexibility frameworks that you might find in Acceptance and Commitment Therapy and other areas, and something I’ve come across recently called whoop wish, outcome obstacle plan useful for goal setting in uncertainty. I don’t mind which acronym people use, but I think becoming clear on some sort of strategy that gives you certainty. The brain likes certainty, if you can trick it into thinking it’s got some certainty that can help with resilience and it can help, yeah, help our brain activate in a way that’s then more more positive and helpful.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  28:18

I love that, yeah. I love that new Mona Amy that you’ve shared and and you know, unfortunately, the likelihood is we are going to potentially see another pandemic in our lifetimes, aren’t we? So I hope that by enlisting all of these various tools, we can just be better prepared and equip our brains with the tools that we need to navigate this uncertainty, which you know that comes with the territory of a pandemic. Although we’ve learned a lot from the covid pandemic, it’s not going to be the same each time. We’re going to need to learn new lessons. There’s there is going to be ambiguity, there is going to be uncertainty. But if we can equip our brains with the right tools, hopefully when we are faced with another one, will come out of it better than we did with the last one.

Amy Brann  29:04

Yeah, I completely agree. The practical strategies may be different depending on the type of pandemic or the situation that we’re in at the time the health set, all of those things, but in terms of your brain, what your brain will need in the future, and what you can strengthen for whether it’s a pandemic or whether it’s a personal health challenge, whether it’s, you know, bereavement, whatever it might be, having some of these tools stronger in our toolbox will will help us through whatever life challenges occur. Okay, so well. If you enjoyed today’s episode, please do share it with a friend or colleague who might find it helpful. It’s one of the best ways to help us reach more people like you.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  29:46

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