Resilience Reimagined: The Art of Bouncing Back

Amy Brann  00:00

Why do some people seem to bounce back from failure while others can get stuck in setbacks for years? Is resilience something that we’re born with, or can we actually train our brains to be more adaptable, more unshakable and better at handling life’s challenges? The truth is, resilience isn’t just about mental toughness. It’s about how your brain processes stress, how your habits shape your response to setbacks, and how your environment either fuels your strength or drains it. In this episode, we’re breaking down the neuroscience of resilience, how your prefrontal cortex, your amygdala and your stress systems determine in whether you recover fast or get overwhelmed. We’ll also unpack some of the behavioral science strategies used by elite athletes, Navy Seals and psychologists to build resilience without relying on willpower alone, so from cognitive reappraisal and the three to one positivity ratio the power of voluntary discomfort and future you visualizations will Explore the proven tools to rewire your brain for resilience. So when life throws challenges your way, you don’t just survive. You thrive. If you’re ready to master the art of bouncing back, then let’s dive in.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  01:14

So Amy, I’m a firm believer that we can build resilience. I’m really excited by this topic, but there is a misconception about what resilience actually means, isn’t there?

Amy Brann  01:24

I think there is. And even in the introduction I’ve given, I think there are a lot more nuances that don’t make the headlines. So normally people say, I’m a resilient person, and we speak very identity focused in terms of or even capability focused in terms of resilience. And if we’ve got the identity of being a resilient person, that could be really helpful, but if we’ve got the identity of not being resilient, really unhelpful, or if we’re saying, Oh, the person doesn’t seem to be very resilient, they’re not a resilient person, that’s where we get into the detail that really matters, because at different times in our life, we could have higher resilience to others. Resilience is more like a set of strategies and recurrent patterns in the brain that can be strengthened but also can be worn down over time. So I would consider myself a resilient person, and I think that’s helpful, but I certainly recognize that there have been phases in my life where I have not shown resilience, and my resilience has been eroded over time, and building resilience when you are very low can be difficult. So I do think this is a more complicated topic than we sometimes give it credit for. And I also think that during covid, everyone, all the organizations that we would normally work with, suddenly came running out saying we need Resilience Training quick. Make everyone resilient with a workshop so that then they can carry on under fire. And that was unfortunate, because the best time for building resilience was not when covid hit, but you obviously had your own experiences of that very acute, challenging time. What’s What’s some of your thoughts on resilience, because you you’re working with so many different people that have acutely and chronically stressful experiences in their lives, and you must have seen huge difference, both in your patients, but I guess also to a degree in the doctors dealing with this and being faced with literal life and death and very traumatizing scenarios on a regular basis.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  03:55

Yes, I think that it’s disheartening if you see yourself as as not very resilient, or somebody describes you as not very resilient, because it isn’t just about your personality. And you know, reassuringly, as you’re alluding to, it’s something that we can train ourselves to be. It’s a skill that we can develop. And there’s obviously neuroscience behind that. But I think that sometimes, when life gets a bit too much. So, for example, the covid pandemic, we’re allowed to not feel very resilient. You know, that’s we shouldn’t feel guilty, or, you know, we shouldn’t feel like we are not capable, just because in that moment we don’t feel very resilient. There are quite a few practical techniques that we can practice, but I think a lot of the time, you know, even when we’re talking about all of this in the podcast, if you’re listening to it from a kind of a frame of thought or a point in time when you’re feeling really under pressure and really. Stressed. Then some of the things that even we mentioned are very well. They seem very unobtainable and and that’s that’s okay, it doesn’t mean that they are unobtainable. It’s just that at that moment, that’s how you’re feeling. And there’s a few things that we can try to do. I mean, you’ve mentioned covid, something that we’re never going to forget, and sadly, probably not the last pandemic that we’re going to find ourselves in. But hopefully we’ve learned a lot from that pandemic and will not make similar mistakes again. But yes, resilience was eroded in that time, and I think being kind to one another, being kind to our friends, our family, our colleagues, our patients, is really important, even though we ourselves are also not feeling very resilient terms of what kind of strategies we could employ. I mean, I definitely don’t practice this as much as I’d like, but practicing mindfulness is is quite important. I know that some people, a friend of a mutual friend of ours, does the cold the cold showers, or not even the cold showers? She’s got an immersive tank, hasn’t she? I’m definitely not brave enough to try that. I guess in your own way, you have to find something that’s going to be workable for your life situation. I mean, I, after my marital breakdown, I was Doom scrolling one evening at two or three in the morning, and came across an advert which basically encouraged me to sign up to having a PT, so a regular weekly gym session. And that was my way of in, you know, thinking of ways to kind of improve my resilience. And what it really boils down to is reframing how we’re thinking about things and that, and you’ve got to try to do that and practice that on a daily basis, but it’s hard. And when you’re under a lot of pressure, when you’ve got a lot of stress as a parent or manager, you know, it you start to feel a bit guilty, don’t you, you do start to feel like you’re not a very resilient person. But it isn’t about not being a resilient person. And so it’s a skill that we need to learn to strengthen so that when we are having those moments, you know, when I have patients in real dire straits and having those moments. It’s about then reminding them, well, you know, come on, at that point in your life when you had that challenge, you know, you managed to get yourself out of it. And that wasn’t because of me, that was something kind of innate within you that we’ve got to try to also eliminate the guilt that surrounds kind of not feeling very resilient.

Amy Brann  07:41

I totally agree, and I there’s lots in what you’ve just said. So mindfulness absolutely has got a really good evidence base, and the mechanism, as far as we’re aware of how it’s working, is increasing the connectivity between the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala, meaning that your emotional regulation improves, and that’s the intention with the cold exposure as well, is that it’s like gradiated exposures to stress, as much as you would with trying to support someone with a phobia or with allergen testing. You know, with the therapy, I’m less familiar with it, but I understand it’s gradiated exposure, for example, tiny, tiny amounts of nut for a nut allergy person, and then, and then building up. And it’s the same with the brain, the challenge, and by understanding what’s going on in the brain, it we can better determine what’s good next steps for individuals, or for us as ourselves. So for example, if we know that sometimes the prefrontal cortex is not able to regulate the amygdala, possibly the amygdala response is so big, or possibly the prefrontal cortex is not in the best condition to regulate and to tame the amygdala, then at those times, like gradiated stress, even the lowest gradient may be too much. And then that’s what we see in some individuals, for example, that might be suffering from depression or some other mental health condition at the time. Is, I know you’ve said before, look, expecting someone to get up and go for a walk, which we know is really good them, and probably will boost their resilience and will boost their mental well being. But at some times that feels like too much for someone, and so I think it’s really an amazing testament to you, and I hope others can see parallels in their lives with you. I think it’s fair to say you were never really a Jimmy kind of person, is that okay to say, Jeff,

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  09:42

I was very fearful of gyms. Amy, I mean, without feeling very anxious, I didn’t mind physical activity, you know, going for a run or, you know, doing things outside of a gym environment. But then in this kind of chapter of my life, you know, where I have live. Time, I need somebody externally motivating me as well. Hence the PT, but now I was very fearful of gym.

Amy Brann  10:07

Yeah, I don’t remember you being the strongest person ever either. I mean, like hospital doors are fairly heavy, and I can remember sort of, like us both needing a sort of bit of effort in order to get some of them moving. But then even at your low time, and as you say, Doom scrolling at 2am something prompted in you to go, Yep, okay, I’m going to do that. And that has been a huge anchor point and boost to you. And fantastic. So sometimes saying yes to something that we might not normally say yes to can then just that small step, and then the follow through could really help rewire people when we’re in a challenging state. So good move. Yeah.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  10:54

I mean, emotions definitely play such a big part in, in our, in our what action we take. And you know, you’re allowed to feel a bit helpless and hopeless at times, but then I think you’ve, you’ve got to kind of try to bring yourself out of that mindset. And I mean, we do this when we coach, don’t we? We ask people to put themselves into other people’s shoes, and what would they say? You know, what would you say to yourself at that time? And so I think having these emotional challenges, they are good triggers for change, and that is how we probably should see them. But you know, it isn’t easy. You know, none of this is easy, which is why we often do need some tips and pointers in the right direction, but the first thing is to try to acknowledge, yes, this is difficult, but no, it’s not because I’m not a resilient person, that I’m not handling it very well, and then having that compassion to yourself puts you in a better position to then take the next step and be proactive in changing things, rather than dwelling on the situation that you’re in. But, you know, I see patients who are in really awful situations with conditions, which are, you know, incurable, and you know, you don’t, you don’t want to be that person that says, Oh, you just need to be more resilient. Because, of course, they’re not going to feel very resilient. They’re, they’re really struggling. And so I think just acknowledging the struggle is part of being resilient,

Amy Brann  12:26

yes, and part of being human, isn’t it? Is that we’re not we are limited as human beings. We are not meant to be able to cope with everything. We’re not designed to cope with everything, and I know it’s been a concern in organizations that almost a plaster slapped on. Here you go, guys, here’s a resilience workshop. Now keep working 20 hours a day, and people have shared with us, I don’t have time to watch their resilience workshop, you know. So that can be really, really challenging, but as you say, almost being aware that there are times of struggle and that that doesn’t define them, we’re so vulnerable to making things mean other things that may or may not be helpful. And I guess that links a bit to Martin Seligman research around the learned helplessness versus learned optimism. And there are differences that we observe, but I think they’re very complex as to why someone might experience repeated failures and then stop trying versus experience repeated failures and keep going. And I think lots of careers are framed as it’s not a sprint, it’s a marathon. You just have to keep going. And so then, how are we looking after ourselves in a way where we can keep going?

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  13:57

And but you can see why people almost give up in in some situations, don’t you? Because, you know, there’s they’re so deep in something and their mindset is in such a negative place that they, you know, when, when an opportunity does arise, or there’s a chance for some change, they can’t even see it. So, you know, you can see how that happens. And so I think what is important is, is, is trying to see those opportunities. And, you know, I’ve said this to myself all the time, you know, what is in my control? What can I change? What can I you know, what do I not have any control over? And it makes, it does give me a sense of empowerment to know, okay, so there are things I can do. This does feel like a really awful situation, but I can have some control over that aspect of it. And actually, you know from what you’ve spoken about before, the neuroscience behind that means that future stress really. Responses are lessened and we’re able to cope better the next time that something similar happens.

Amy Brann  15:06

Yeah, absolutely. And also, the perception of control can be so useful for emotional regulation, we don’t actually have to be in control. And I’ve tried. I’ve mentioned before, I’ve been trying to read some stories of Holocaust survivors, and I can, I can only get so far before I have to stop. But what I’m seeing is and it’s been documented before, but this individual’s abilities to retain some mental perception of control, they believe they are still in control of some things, is hugely impactful on their experience and their experience after that. That phase has physically come to an end, but obviously there’s so much impact neurally. People who practice optimism are shown to have lower activation in the amygdala and higher activation in the prefrontal cortex, which is what we’re looking for in order to down regulate the stress response. So I love that we’re talking about these different components. And there’s there’s that awareness that every day we we can be as resilient as we want, and our ability to let go of the stress and not let the stress erode us every day is is like a skill that all of us, it would be amazing if we all had that skill, and I’m working on it, but certainly, personally, at the moment, I sometimes find myself ruminating on something negative and just thinking, Oh, I don’t want to be thinking about this negative thing. And maybe there’s some other purpose, and I’m going to get going to get some flash of insight. But sometimes I’m certainly aware negativity can breed negativity. So if I’m feeling negative about one thing, then something else happens. I’m looking at it through the lens of a negative attribution bias, and I’m more likely to, with my confirmation bias, go see this is why the world is awful, and I don’t believe that at all. And yet, sometimes that could be a thought that jumps into my head, and then, you know, catching that thought, making sure I’m I guess, protecting myself against learned helplessness, I think that’s a bit down the line, but just having awareness of those things has is really important, and that’s certainly something that you’ve lived, isn’t it? Your ability to hone your skill around, what can I control in this situation?

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  17:51

Absolutely right? And I think the other thing to just remember is, if you’re sitting there listening and thinking, Oh, it’s all well and good, but where do I start with, you know, where do I start with tackling this? And at some points in my life, I’ve, I have felt that I thought, how can I get myself out of this situation? How can I improve this situation? And really, you just gotta take a step back, I think. And, you know, even just thinking about your day, you know, what are you doing in your day? Where is there a chance for you to try to build some resilience and think about the more practical things that you can change? Because we know that the environment that we are in has a has a big part to play in resilience. So I think if you’re finding it difficult to know where to start, maybe that’s the place have a think about the structure of your day and and where you can try to make small changes to improve the chances of feeling that that kind of more resilient mindset.

Amy Brann  19:01

Yeah, I agree. My friend, who’s a counselor, will always bring it back to the day and taking it one chunk at a time. And that’s probably good advice, partly through experience and seeing and knowing that actually our emotional state changes so frequently, if we can get a structure in place for today with some positives, then that will set us up well for the next day. I guess a couple of other behavioral redesigns to think about how, how this can be upgraded is thinking about oxytocin and how we are triggering that it can often be the case that when we are very stressed, and I’m certainly guilty of this, we don’t want to talk to people. We want to hide under our duvet, and I seriously like have done that in the recent weeks, so that doesn’t help. Typically, it tends to feel isolating and all of. Those other negative things, like it might a good sleep might be absolutely the best thing. But considering strategically, how are we getting out oxytocin boosted, you know, because that can help down regulate stress, help can help buffer against it. And if we connect with people that socially we feel safe with, we could also potentially boost serotonin, dopamine, and we could really change some of the narratives, which, if some of the narratives are starting to erode resilience or cause more stress, fuel more stress, I should say, then that could be useful. And then the other things, in terms of the micro recovery rituals, making sure that we are bringing everything down each day, like our stress levels can go up and down, and that can be fine, and our resilience can can hold that. But when we go up and then we stay up, that’s when things can be problematic, and it can then really negatively impact so how we resetting the nervous system, all of the classic stuff, you know, standing outside on your bare feet, spending some time in nature, smelling something lovely. I’ve got a lovely routine. At the moment, a jasmine Bush is out in my garden, so I stand barefoot in nature, smelling the Jasmine bush. It’s like a perfect trilogy. And then once we feel that little bit more boosted, which obviously takes time to really rewire, but then the controlled exposure to discomfort can be really useful, whether you’re an ice bath person or doing fasting or the tough workouts, or you’re just having a chat with someone and that feels like the discomfort exposure or tackling a hard task.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  21:44

Well, these basics that you mentioned, like, you know, sleep, for example, it comes up time and time again, doesn’t it, but with good reason. You know, you need to give your brain time to process everything that you’ve been trying to work through throughout the day and in recent times. You know, social prescribing has been such a big thing in healthcare. You know, we see how big an impact loneliness, loneliness can have on people, and then the subsequent impact on their health. So having that social contact boosting your oxytocin, as you say, it does help boost resilience, and we shouldn’t, you know, we should appreciate the importance of that. So in organizations, for example, I mean, I’m sure you’ve seen a variety of ways in which organizations try to encourage these kind of little boosts in oxytocin and the social connections, but perhaps that’s something kind of worth bearing in mind and kind of factoring that into the working day, absolutely.

Amy Brann  22:46

And it’s those connection points we know we’ve got a lot of research that if you’ve got a friend, you know, some trusted people at work, it’s better for overall well being, as well as productivity and all of the other things. Yeah, and having those touch points in and out of work are just so important. They help with the reframing and the I guess, a linked piece here with reimagining resilience is to think you know, who are your reframing. We need another R word, but companions. You know, who are the who are the challenges that are gonna really help you examine frames that you’re putting on things, because it’s it’s all just like how it’s framed affects what gets triggered in our brain, which then affects the wiring of our brain, which then affects our behavior next time. So it’s such a circle, but it really does need to include the narrative and how we’re constructing that and what we’re visualizing, and yeah, and then having those people around us that can help us with these things, but that requires vulnerability.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  23:55

It does. It really does. And actually, we had a bit of a discussion in our practice after a pretty horrific safeguarding case that one of the clinicians was predominantly dealing with being the safeguarding lead, and I’m the Deputy safeguarding lead, and what we kind of concluded, in the end, was we need a buddy system here, whereby when somebody has dealt with something quite challenging or traumatic, that they have somebody who is allocated or assigned to them, a buddy that they can then find time to speak to and and debrief. And it’s it’s proven to be so beneficial, because you don’t want to be carrying the weight of the challenges around with you, because it’s going to therefore impact your productivity and how effective you’re going to be at tackling new challenges at work. So even having a little buddy system in place, you know something really small and minor, and it doesn’t even have to be somebody that you know awfully well, or somebody who aligns on your values, it just needs to be somebody who can understand you. Your position, because you’re all, you know, you’re all in the same boat, really, in the workplace, aren’t you, and you’re all, you’ve all got the similar you’ve got very similar goals, but it could be a senior colleague and a junior colleague. For example, we’re all human beings. We all share similar challenges, and it’s not necessarily about the jobs and the roles that we play. It’s about sharing the, I guess, sharing in the humanity and, yeah, just the feelings of these certain challenges.

Amy Brann  25:29

Yeah, what you’ve just said is so interesting. So I was, I was on, I’ll call it a hike, but I think that’s a bit of a grandiose description of it. But it was an extended walk through a forest with this counselor friend, and we’ve been wrestling around one of her phrases is feeling is healing, and I’m not totally on board with that as a phrase yet, so I’m seeking to understand more where that comes from and what it means from her and others perspectives. But what we did, what I did, get more clarity around, is, is how, what the mechanism of talking through problems, challenges, experiences, could be with another human being and and I might be misrepresenting this, but part of what I took away was that shared attention on something we know that shared attention increases memory traces, so you could see the advantage from that perspective, but someone being with you in that space and hearing what you’re sharing and having a reaction to it, that is that is authentic and therefore perceived as congruent with With the human in front of you that, in itself, makes you less alone and will affect how you process whatever it is so in a clinical setting, obvious, clear advantages, and yet again, something that other professions, I think, could borrow from the medical profession to benefit, because any challenge, yes, you can go home and tell your partner if that’s your setup, about what’s happened, and that could be incredibly beneficial. There was a study some years ago about triads and having someone pay attention and listen to you really seemed to help the processing, but it also something that we could do in work, and not for the intention of coaching someone, just through the intention of hearing someone and sharing, sharing that load, to a degree, for the benefit of their processing.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  27:37

And it’s, it’s pretty interesting. And I think, I mean, you’ve mentioned this to me before, about how athletes, you know, I think by having these discussions, it’s encouraging individuals to visualize certain scenarios. And I think you mentioned that athletes do this. They train their brains by rehearsing potential, you know, all the things that could potentially go wrong in a scenario, they try to visualize it and and then rehearse what they would do. And I think, you know, surgeons do the same when they’re preparing for theater and for operations. So then vocalizing thoughts and the processes helps you to visualize, which again, then strengthens those neural pathways.

Amy Brann  28:17

Yeah, absolutely. I was speaking to a leader of performance in elite sport yesterday, and he was saying a really similar thing, and the taking care of what’s going on in people’s brains has always been important. We’ve we’ve typically drawn on the psychology in the past, but now we can add in the neuroscience, yeah, and build from there. It’s very important. The other thing that’s just popped into my head is, and we probably should draw this to a close, but Barbara Fredrickson suggests that we need at least three positive emotions for every one negative emotion to be more resilient. And I’ve seen other studies suggest different ratios of like praise to critique. But even if we were to take a three to one approach, we we’ve we’ve got to do, yeah, that would be a great thing to have in the backs of all each of our minds in order to support others we’re coming into contact with. It’s certainly something I could, I can take into my work and to my parenting. Oh, right, well, I feel like there’s lots more that we could go into with this resilience. Jess, but we’ve got, we’ve got resources. We’ve got the spark sheets, we’ve got things that will support people to dig deeper. And there are, you know, workshops, masterclasses, for people to dig into this further. But the the personal strategies, the team strategies, the family strategies, I think I. Are really good to have a chat about and and see what might work. So if today’s episode has been stimulating, then please do share it with a friend or colleague who might find it helpful. It’s one of the best ways for us to grow and reach more people like you.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  30:14

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