Contribution Catalyst: Unlocking Your Unique Impact

Amy Brann  00:00

What if I told you that a single conversation could literally rewire your brain, that the right question asked at the right moment could shift your thinking, break old patterns and spark real change? Coaching isn’t just about setting goals or boosting performance, it’s about unlocking the way your brain processes challenges, motivation and transformation. Neuroscience shows that conversations that we have with a great coach aren’t just helpful, they activate neuroplasticity. They fuel our dopamine driven motivation. They can even quiet the fear circuits in our brain that can hold us back. So how does it work? What makes coaching so powerful at igniting change, and how can we use these principles in our own lives to think clearer, make better decisions and create lasting habits. Let’s dive into the fascinating neuroscience of coaching and how guided conversations can literally change your mind.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  00:52

So Amy, you and I both have had some very powerful coaching conversations, and I think we’ve seen the change in people. So what kind of what kind of things have you noticed?

Amy Brann  01:07

Well, I do love coaching as a medium for effecting change. I’ve seen people make dramatically different choices after having coaching conversations and that can alter the trajectory of their life to be far more helpful for them. I’ve seen people that recognize repeated thought patterns that are holding them back, realize this, increase their self awareness, and then again, make changes. So I think people are curious about how coaching works. You know, how can they create real change? Is it just about asking good questions? I know you and I both teach on the manager as coach program that’s in different organizations, equipping the managers specifically to have these coaching skills so that they can support the people around them. And we say to them all at the start of that process that you know, through these skills, you could change people’s lives, and believing that and treating your conversations in that way, it’s very different to just having a chat. So in terms of whether it’s just about asking good questions, it certainly is about asking good questions, but it is, there is more to it than that. And I think people are curious about what happens in the brain when we have these insightful coaching conversations. And I would love to be able to bring you facts and figures, you know, statistics, Jess, but when I was looking all of the stats that I could find about the benefits of coaching came from self appointed coaching bodies, so there’s a conflict of interest. And since I wouldn’t share with you stats on a study by coke about the benefits of drinking fizzy drinks, I thought I would just be open about this and skip the statistics for this this occasion, but we’ve both seen, and you know, millions of people have experienced the benefits of coaching. People pay for coaching out of their own pocket, and organizations continue to invest in it, so it is a good thing to explore. And of course, I wrote neuroscience for coaches because I wanted coaches to tap into more of the neuroscience that is underpinning as far as we can tell. Obviously, more studies have been done in in the field of neuroscience and coaching, but but not masses. And so we are drawing on the insights from other research to apply into these contexts.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  03:46

Oh, and I think what’s important to understand when you embark on a coaching journey as well, just because I was a bit of a cynic slightly to begin with, is actually it’s just never too late. It’s never too late to change our behavior. You know, the brain, as you’ll, I’m sure, explain further that it’s, it’s amenable to change and remodeling and rewiring, and so if you’ve behaved in a certain way for decades, and you think, Oh, I mean, there’s surely nothing I can do differently now. I mean, this is just how I am. I think that that’s the first misconception you just have to park because trust the process. Go into it with an open mind, and changes will happen. I mean, I see this in my trainees all the time. You know, they are fully qualified doctors who come to me wanting to become general practitioners GPS, and so they’ve already been doctors for a number of years, and the changes I see from the start of their training Journey to the End are remarkable. And I think it’s an old wives tale to think that you know you can’t change. So yeah, tell us more. Tell us more about the brain.

Amy Brann  04:57

Well, you’re absolutely right. The Are you. To do. Oh, it must be a decade ago. Now, I used to put up a slide of when talking to companies of a dog, and say, I bet some of you believe you can’t teach an old dog new tricks and lots of sort of and then sort of sharing. No, you know, we used to think that neuroplasticity was only a thing up until you were about 21 I’m not entirely sure how they landed on 21 but we believe that up to about 30 years ago, that neuroplasticity was limited to that phase in our life, but we know that the brain continues to be plastic. Yes, of course, it’s more plastic when you’re little, but it’s plastic for the entirety of our life, and you’ve seen that in real life, our experiences shape us, and that makes evolutionary sense. I don’t think, no, I think I did the evolutionary medicine module. You did a different module.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  05:48

Did you do it? I did that one. Yeah, yeah. It’s brilliant.

Amy Brann  05:51

In I was gonna say year seven, no, what’s the first, first year of medical school? I found it really, really fascinating to say, to sort of understand, why is it some diseases, you know we were talking about, continue to exist. If they don’t offer an evolutionary benefit, why haven’t they just died out? Might be that we can’t see the benefit yet, but it makes total sense that the brain does continue to evolve and change. Otherwise, you know, if, if the old tribes, you know, went from one land to another land because there was no food or shelter in one place, and it required different things of them. And the brain was just like, No, we can’t do it. This is it. We can only work when we were working when we were 12. Sorry, can’t help it just makes no sense at all. So of course it can, and there are things that we can do to help it change and to work with it, but it’s definitely possible for it to change. And, you know, our neurons firing, we know that their receptiveness and the structural changes that are taking place right at the synapse, that’s happening all the time. So sometimes I know, in marketing speak, people like to talk about, you know, we’re gonna, you know, I don’t know we’re going to activate. We’re going to make your brain neuroplastic. It’s already doing it. We can just, we can be more intentional with working with it. But I love that you see it with your trainees. It’s, it’s going to be the case. And I would put it to you that their brains are changing, not just because they are learning new stuff. So yes, they will be heading textbooks or in the latest papers that are going to help them with certain protocols. But it’s also because you’re having coaching conversations with them, and their patients might be having coaching conversations with them, either intentionally or inadvertently.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  07:40

No, absolutely, yeah. I mean, I’ve seen that definitely. I’ve had patients reflect questions back to me, which I thought, Oh, this is going to be really powerful question. I’m really going to get to the crux of the problem here. And then they just reflected it back to me. And I’ve just thought, wow, yeah, that’s actually a really good question. I’ve never thought about that before. Both. It’s a two way learning opportunity, isn’t it?

Amy Brann  08:04

It is and and when we are working with another individual, whether we’re in the coach or the coachee role, we’ve got the opportunity still to learn and to change as a result, to be affected by what we’re co creating. And there’s lots of different ways that our brain will change during these interactions, I would probably say the most important thing, and I’ve got a friend who wrote a dissertation on this as she was trained to be a counselor. We know that counseling is different from coaching, but there are some similarities, and one of those similarities is that you’re co creating this interaction, and how you know, if you and I are coaching one another, how we each show up in that interaction is going to affect our brains. You know, I’m your we’ve got emotional contagion. We’ve got whether or not you’re paying attention or, you know, distracted, all of these things are going to impact the questions that you ask, the tone that you use, what I’m expecting. There’s so much that affects a coaching interaction. If we just think about dopamine, our neurotransmitter associated with our pleasure and reward, it’s going to it plays a crucial role in our motivation and our goal directed behavior. A lot of coaching will focus on goal directed behavior and and that’s that can be great, but those that those conversations where we’re positioning something that’s enticing and positive, I’m likely to have a dopamine response even to that, because then the anticipation and then the drive that gets set Up is so valuable, and it will enhance my motivation. It will change my state. It will change my internal thoughts, my what I ruminate on, even, and it can support my behavior change. And I bet, I bet, some of your conversations in a in a clinical setting, you see that come to life.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  10:00

Yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. Often is usually when I’m having kind of opportunity, opportunistic, kind of health promotion conversations. So I can think of a very good example of a couple who were both very heavy smokers and unfortunately suffering the effects of that. So I challenged them to stop smoking together. And I asked them to whenever they thought about spending money on cigarettes, that they put that money in a jar or, you know, some other receptacle. And I challenged them to do that, and they eventually saved enough money to go on holiday together. And it was that camaraderie that sort of, what’s the word competitive edge? Oh, I’m going to do it. I’m going to do it. And then that sense of achievement for them, it was so motivating that it actually eventually sparked their desire to eliminate other less desirable lifestyle choices. So yeah, there was, and that’s definitely the dopamine, isn’t it? That’s the kind of reward pathway and and feeling motivated and having that dopamine release, which then fueled their desire to make further changes. And that’s just one example. I mean, I see it every day, but that was a that was a particularly positive example, and

Amy Brann  11:19

that was that stemmed from a coaching based conversation. It wasn’t that you said, Don’t smoke. It’s bad for you. These are the diseases that it will cause. I strongly advise you to quit. You went beyond that because we know the tell based I imagine you’ve got evidence that that’s not so effective.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  11:40

Well, for that particular couple, it was, I’m not going to be too ashamed about it, but I did use a little bit of emotional blackmail in the sense that, you know, I knew them very well. I knew that they had grandchildren, and that they were very proud of their grandchildren, and we just ended up having a conversation about the fact that one of their grandchildren had recently got engaged, and then they were going to plan a long engagement and then eventually get married. And you know, I asked them to Paint me a picture of what they thought that would look like. And you know, they know that I can be pretty brutal. And I said, Look, I’m going to be really brutal with you. Do you actually want to see this wedding? Because at the rate you’re going with all the physical health conditions that are being impacted by your smoking, you know, I’m not, I’m not going to lie to you. There may be a point when you’re not, you don’t get to see that. And that emotional trigger was very important, like, I don’t, you know, I say it in jest. I don’t emotionally blackmail my patients, but having that little bit of information about them and how they tick and what makes them, you know, what motivates them? You know, we all have things that we are trying to achieve and goals that we have, and if you can tap into what those are and allow people to come to the realization themselves, rather than you putting it on a plate and saying that this is what I think you want to do, that is so much they’ve got so much weight, add so much there’s so much power to those kinds of questions and to tap into that is, is part of coaching, isn’t it?

Amy Brann  13:14

It is absolutely and it makes use of some of the motivational interviewing type techniques, which I think could be utilized so much more in organizations, anytime we’re looking for change, with individuals eliciting it from them. And I love what you I mean. I love what you’ve said, and I love what you did. Why? Because it had good intentions. You know, I think that the examples would be few and far between where it would be in someone’s own interest to continue smoking. So it’s a it’s a clean example, and they could, it was a nudge. You could have still, they could have still chosen to continue smoking. But they they chose not to. Why? Probably because they got that image in their head and how amazing to use another coaching skill visualization, paint me the picture of the wedding. They could see the wedding. They wanted to be part of it and to see it in real life. And then you gave them your medical opinion. Continue on the trajectory you’re on, I’m not sure you will. And they then chose what was more important to them, was it smoking, which is has got a hold over them. They are likely to be chemically addicted. They are likely to be environmentally habitually addicted. Dopamine has been working its routine on them for a long time, but they chose to say, I’m not okay with that routine and that being the boss anymore. I want the wedding picture more than I want the daily smoking. And that’s set up for being really difficult, because temporally, it’s way out in the future. It’s a one time thing. The wedding is one day. How many times did they have to say no to the small win, the small boost of the cigarette? In order to say that bigger Yes, and then to make those other positive changes in their life. So I think we both get it. We both know these things can be difficult, but that’s then where the power of coaching can come in, and where, if you’ve built this relationship with them, they know that you’ve got their best interests at heart. They’re not going to, you know, push against and do stuff just to spite you. But I think that’s a really important, helpful story around how it can work. I guess one of the other major influences is to is to bring in our cognition and our ability to self reflect. So our prefrontal cortex is involved in self reflection, along with lots of other things. But when we’re self reflecting, we may also activate the default mode network. So we we go off into daydreaming. It could be and we’re thinking about what’s what’s been, what’s what we want the future to look like, and how we can construct things. And you and I have both seen in organizations reflection. Most people don’t feel like they’ve got time for something as luxurious as to reflect on things. But actually, if we are when something happens, our neural pathways get activated in one way, we know that it’s unlikely that they will ever be activated in exactly the same way again, because the conditions of the brain are changing all of the time. So if we then get to the end of the day or at the weekend, and we look back on something, we’re going to be in a different state, and our ability to process that and to see things differently will also be different. So is, I mean, what are your thoughts on reflection?

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  16:50

Oh, I’m a big fan, big fan of reflection. I think sometimes people feel like they like if they don’t have time for it, or they’re not that kind of person, but yeah, probably when you were, if you were to kind of really drill down, we’re probably all reflecting on a continual basis, whether you formalize that in a journal, or whether you’re just having kind of informal conversations with colleagues or family or friends, you know, you’re constantly reflecting, and it’s then constantly changing the decisions that you make. And I mean, as a trainer, I am, you know, always heavily emphasizing to trainees about reflecting it’s, it’s one of the biggest parts of our job, because otherwise, what we’re denying the trainees is that insight into their behaviors or patterns of behavior which might be hindering and affecting their ability to be Good doctors. So we do it in a tutorial setting, which is a bit more formal. I encourage them to do it on their portfolio, in a written, based reflection. I do this annually when I’m appraised every year as a doctor. And so I think it’s not about kind of making time for it. I think it’s about trying to adopt it into your day to day habits. And again, as I said, you’re probably doing it already.

Amy Brann  18:09

Yeah, that’s a really good shout. Actually, I think often there are things that we know are important that people don’t think that they’re doing, but actually might be what I’ve started doing this year is reflecting with someone else, so sort of sharing what I’ve done, what I’ve thought, maybe even sharing an email I’ve written, and looking for CO reflection on it. And it might be that there are some questions asked of me, but there might be some thoughts shared with me, and I can then see how I feel about those questions. And the person I’m working with is a very feely person, and I’m not a very feely person. I’d like to say what I think rather than what I feel, but having someone challenge me to reflect on feelings as well is it’s good because it’s stretching me, and it’s getting me to explore different responses. So yeah, that seems to be a big part.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  19:07

And I think organizations will have to sense what’s best for their teams. But you know, it could be tapped onto the end of a business meeting, for example, or you could have more formalized time structured into the diary, to have just moments of reflection for a few minutes with a colleague. So there are ways of doing it which doesn’t impact on our time and the pressures that we face in our day to day jobs, but I think by being aware of the importance of it, we’re more likely to then incorporate it.

Amy Brann  19:41

Yeah, I think that those questions of what went well and even better, if which a lot of companies do build into the end of meetings, but not all. I think those that do it really find it beneficial be keen to hear feedback from anyone who agrees or disagrees. Do. Yeah, but I’ve only heard positive things about just examining that, and then we need that sort of coaching prerequisite of the safe space in order for it to be a psychologically safe environment where people can share their feelings and their thoughts without fear of being Yeah, torn apart. So in coaching, we’re often asking open ended questions, and sometimes people question, why? Why are we? Why do we go down this route? And I know when we’ve been training these these managers, one of the things that you share, that they love, is the golden minute. So can you tell us more about the golden minute?

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  20:50

They’re the golden minute in a consultation, which it’s not just me, it’s like all GPS, I’m sure, do this. But essentially, it’s allowing the patient a minute of uninterrupted conversation or chat where they can just express to you their problem and what’s bothering them or what’s brought them to you. And it’s just so important. I think we’re all so under pressure and so busy that we often will leap in with solutions. And, you know, somebody says something, and it prompts something in your mind, and you just jump in and interject, or politely, you know, step in and and stop their flow. But actually, what I find with patients is the golden minute can be so enlightening and can often reveal far more than if you were to interrupt them. And so I encourage people to try this. If you’re having a difficult conversation, or a conversation where you’re trying to solve a problem, allow the person to have that time. We heavy, heavily focus upon establishing, you know, what somebody’s concerns are. What are they trying to you know, gain from the consultation? What are their expectations? You know what ideas they have about what’s going on. And if we’re too quick to interrupt, we can really miss important cues. So I am all for the golden minute and giving people that that time, that space, to just share whatever they want to share. And then, of course, in allowing them that time you’re also engaged, and you’re demonstrating deep listening skills, and you’re able to pick up on cues, but really resist the urge to then jump in when you’ve had something interesting or it sparks an idea in your brain, just put a pin in it, park it, and then return to it Once the other person has finished, it’s very tempting to allow people to go on, which, of course, with my job, I would run late all the time if I did that. So at some point, I do have to interject, but what I found is, if you give people that space, they will often reveal things that they hadn’t consciously been aware of. And and it doesn’t sound like much, you know, 60 seconds, but it is really, really enlightening. So give it a go.

Amy Brann  23:07

Yeah, absolutely, that makes sense. And I love the giving the people the space. And then the other piece is also listening specifically for their expectations. And I think when we’re having these conversations with people, especially if they’re on the fly and they’re, you know, it might be that you’re you’re in a corridor and you’re just grabbing five minutes, or you’re on teams and just shooting some stuff back and forth. If there’s a way for you to uncover what the intention or the expectation is from this interaction, it can dramatically change the course of a coaching conversation, especially if it’s not contracted as a coaching conversation. But they are skills that you’ve got, that you want to bring in. Our expectations we know are hugely influential. They will affect what neuro chemicals are circulating in us, what networks are activated, how we’re primed, they will set us up very differently, depending on the expectation, and if they are hoping, and you see this in relationships all the time, if one party is hoping to just offload On the other party and the other party thinks that the first party wants input and advice and problem solving help, then you immediately get a break in the relationship, some sort of rupture, which LinkedIn has to be repaired, and all of the rest of it. So if we understand why someone’s talking to us, and I would love a world. I don’t have really thought this through, but at this point in time, I think a world would be good where we are all a bit more overt about what we’re wanting, hoping for from another so I can say, Jess, I just need you to listen to me rant and rave about this. And the great thing about friends, obviously, is over time, they know. What you need based on just how you’re showing up. And if I was off ranting about something, you wouldn’t dare to try and offer me some positive, constructive input. But equally, we were tuned into other needs too, but in an organizational setting that might be less clear.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  25:19

Yeah. And I think the other thing, which is, you know, I completely understand this is sometimes difficult in organizations, but if the conversation then takes a different direction than you were expecting, it may seem counterproductive to go with that, because you think, well, actually, we set out with these objectives in mind, and we’re now going off tangent here. I think sometimes allowing, kind of trusting the process and going in that direction can actually be very helpful so not to be too constrained by, you know, the objectives that you initially set out, which I appreciate, is difficult when you have a specific question that needs answering. But often those conversations which do go in a different direction, can kind of expose other potential solutions. So I think it’s important not to be too rigid as well.

Amy Brann  26:13

Yeah, I totally agree. I think those meandering explorations often reveal gems. And as you say, you can frame that you are migrating from an initial agreement or brief, whatever it might be, but it might be that there’s something that could be really valuable that someone’s now feeling able to share or wanting to explore, and I think so I know in the organizational context of coaching, we know that asking good questions and having a trusted relationship can mean that people do open up. And it might be that people open up about stuff that then is really difficult to contain and to hold and to work with in that context. So it might be at times we do need to say, I would really like to talk more to you about this. It seems like it is big and important. Let’s schedule a time to do that, because practicalities may dictate that’s the case, and then it may or may not be that you actually feel equipped to have that conversation, but having these, having people that are willing to give you undistracted attention in today’s world, I think, is a real gift, and We know that that shared attention, in and of itself, can help change the way our brains process things. We can remember things far better. We can process things far better when we’ve got this shared attention to people’s looking at something, whether it’s a challenge or a goal, together, and we know that change can be difficult, but having these conversations that are directing us back to reconnect to what’s really important to us. The great example with your smokers was that they they were doing what was most important to them. Rather than you telling them what they should be doing, you are helping them to do what they really wanted to do. And that’s that’s what coaching is about. It’s about reducing some of the friction. Is about helping people think things through. It’s about looking at how we can think things through differently, activating the amygdala, as you did, but linking it to their identity and things that are going to sustainably ignite their dopamine responses and networks, rather than needing all of those short term quick hits, You’ve got something that’s a much better anchor for them going forwards.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  29:03

And then it then did trigger, you know, self reflection. And they then came up with solutions for other kind of lifestyle choices. And that self generated Insight was far more powerful than me saying to them, Well, look, you stopped smoking because you saved all this money. Now you’ve gone on holiday. Let’s tackle your alcohol consumption next. But I didn’t have to say that. They came to me and they said, we’ve done so well with this. We’ve decided together that we’re going to take on this next lifestyle habit. And that was, you know, that ensured that they were going to be, well, more likely to be successful in achieving that goal than if I’d said, Okay, well, that’s one ticked off to this. Okay, let’s move on to the next one now. So having direct feedback versus that insight that they’ve gained themselves was, was, you know, they they’re more likely to now return. Maintain that behavior,

Amy Brann  30:01

yes, yeah, absolutely, yeah. Because, and that’s one of the benefits of coaching, is that it should be self directed. You know, we say from a neuroscience perspective, it’s about self directed neuroplasticity, and that is when it works really well. And in different contexts, it might need to be that there is some outside direction to start with, but you then get to a self directed place. And I think you and I are both less fussed about all of the terms and labels and more interested in does it work? Does it help people? And yeah, we’ve seen that coaching. Does it to have that interaction with another human being can’t not affect you. You’d need to be wired, really quite unusually, for there to be no impact of that interaction.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  30:53

And all got to be on the same page, really. You know, coaching is is very powerful if it’s done in a supportive way where people can feel that they they’re not going to be judged, and they’ve got time to explore other innovative ideas, but it’s got to be something that everyone’s on board with. Yeah.

Amy Brann  31:17

Oh, well. We hope there are lots of you out there that are on board with coaching, utilizing coaching, loving coaching. I certainly meet lots of people in in organizations and out that are such advocates, and it’s often once they’ve experienced it themselves, they become converts. As it were, makes it sound way more coffee than it is, but can be done in a question. Can’t it very simple, very clean, just ask a quality question with presence and attention. Well, if you have enjoyed today’s episode, then please share it with a friend or colleague who you think might find it helpful. It really helps us to grow and reach more people like you.

Dr. Jessie Gulsin  31:54

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