Amy Brann 0:00
Welcome to make your brain work. I’m Amy, a neuroscience specialist focused on high performance,

Jessie Gulsin 0:05
and I’m Dr Jessie, a GP with a passion for helping people live healthier, more fulfilling lives.

Amy Brann 0:11
We met over 20 years ago as medical students, and since then, we’ve dedicated our careers to understanding how we can help people excel, both professionally and personally.

Jessie Gulsin 0:19
This podcast is for growth minded professionals who want real, evidence based and science backed insights on everything to do with making your brain work.

Amy Brann 0:29
Let us help you realize your synaptic potential. Empathy, it’s a word that sparks so many different reactions. Is it just soft in a world that often values hard results, or is it actually the secret sauce to lasting influence and powerful leadership? Today, we’re diving into empathy with a twist, not just as a nice to have, but as a strategic skill that separates the mediocre from the truly impactful. Is empathy a sign of weakness, or is it the wisdom that moves people, unlocks innovation and transforms workplaces. We’re peeling back the layers from brain science to practical tips to answer the questions people are really asking. Can you lead with empathy without compromising on accountability? Can empathy co exist with high expectations and drive real performance? Join us as we unpack the research, hear real stories and get hands on with tools you can use to become a more empathetic and effective leader. Let’s explore if empathy is the power move you’ve been overlooking.

Jessie Gulsin 1:32
Wow, what a juicy topic to be discussing today. Amy, so. Amy, come on, tell me what kind of things do people ask you in organizations when it comes to empathy?

Amy Brann 1:43
Well, it’s often prompted in some ways. So normally, if I’m delivering keynotes, I will mention mention empathy directly, I think so in relation to other things. And for me, it’s always been such an obvious supporter of getting the best out of people. So the questions that I’ve been asked more so recently have really surprised me. So someone said to me, is being an empathetic leader just being weak? And that really shocked me. I was curious about where that came from. And other people have asked things like, can you be empathetic and also address poor behaviors. Can you hold people to account all of those kind of things? And so it’s like people are trying to hold to hold empathy, but also everything else that they need and want, and questioning whether they’re compatible. So I think it’s going to be really fun to unpack that some of the studies have shown that 76% of people with highly empathetic leaders reported being engaged at work, whereas only 32% said they were if they had less empathetic leaders. This is a 2021 report by catalyst. They also found that 61% of employees with empathetic leaders felt able to innovate, whereas only 13% of leaders employees with less empathetic leaders did, 86% reported a work life balance that was better. So I get quite excited when we see some of the research and statistics revealing what neuroscience would predict. So I can remember 20 years ago or thereabouts, being in a big auditorium with you about 300 other people at UCL, and I feel like it was in our first week of medical school, but it might not have been. It was a long time ago, but certainly within the first year being taught about empathy. So either cast your mind back, or you will have had refreshers, I’m sure since then, and things may have changed. But how do you define empathy? Jess, what’s empathy to you? And can you also talk to me about what the difference between empathy, sympathy and compassion look like? Yeah, of course.

Jessie Gulsin 3:58
So I would say sympathy is when you’re acknowledging someone’s distress so you can recognize that that situation is is truly awful. Empathy is seeing things from someone’s perspective and then truly understanding the emotions that tie in with that. And compassion is a kind of a empathy plus action. So if I was to give you an example recently, we have, I mean, those of you with children may have been here where you have that epic meltdown, that tantrum in a public place, and it can be very stressful, and I’ve seen other parents experiencing similar scenarios with their children, and I’m very sympathetic, you know, and thinking, oh gosh, yeah, that’s that looks terrible. And then thinking that sympathy, and then thinking, oh gosh, yeah, I know exactly what that feels like. I remember when my son did that only last week. It just felt really horrible. And then the compassion comes. Get into it when, for example, you go over to that parent and you try to help them with some of the multiple things that they’re carrying in the supermarket whilst they try to manage their child. So there’s action that comes with feeling the empathy, feeling the emotions of that person, and then going and actually doing something about it. And it’s really interesting that I have to say, whenever we have discussions, Amy about your work and my work and the kind of people that we both encounter, there are so many parallels. You know, empathy is a human is a human trait, isn’t it’s a human quality. And for me, it’s a really important aspect of my job. It fosters trust, it helps patients feel safe. That is equally important in organizations, isn’t it? If you can understand somebody’s feelings and you can validate them and give them the space to truly feel what they need to feel, they are going to perform better. They are going to feel like they are in a supported and safe space to deliver what they need to deliver. So ultimately, I think those emotions that you know you mentioned earlier, that people think it’s it may be soft to be empathetic, but if you can understand that people just want to feel heard, and then, as a result of you listening and being empathetic, they’re more likely to collaborate and engage with you. That’s a win win situation, isn’t it?

Amy Brann 6:28
It completely is, and I have seen stack loads of evidence recently. I’ve been looking for it, but I’ve found it that shows that the first step to any culture change, any behavior change, whether this is individual or then scaled up, to look at a bigger group, we have to start by getting alongside people. Otherwise it just doesn’t work. We’ve both experienced trying to tell people to do something if they don’t feel like you understand either how it’s going to be a barrier or a challenge to them, or that it’s going to add extra load, or whatever it might be, if they don’t feel understood first, you’ve got very little chance of compliance or much reduced chance of compliance with the task. So yeah, I think this is really interesting, but so I’ve often heard, especially in coaching circles, people working either with manager capabilities as a coach or in one to one coaching as an external to an organization. People really, really pro empathy and very dismissive of sympathy. But going back to that big hall where we were being instructed very early on, I remember there being a big caution around empathy, like for you as a medic, seeing all of the things you see day in, day out. Could you be empathetic in your job all day long? Should you be

Jessie Gulsin 8:02
really good questions. I think empathy can be incredibly draining, but there is such benefit in doing, in being empathetic, and there are ways that you can then boost your empathy and your ability to be empathetic, empathetic in my line of work, obviously I can empathize with people not necessarily experiencing the illnesses myself, because obviously that would just be impossible to be able to experience every illness. But I I had a condition called hyperemesis when I was pregnant, which is when you are basically vomiting your guts up every day, all day. It’s not just a morning thing, and I, since going through that myself, have a real understanding of what that feels like, and I can deeply empathize with patients after experiencing it. But, you know, I can’t obviously experience every illness and and nor should I, because otherwise I wouldn’t be able to do my job, of course, but I think that it is difficult to be empathetic all day in my job if I don’t look after myself and fill my empathy bucket, we’ve all been there, haven’t we? It’s, you know, somebody calls in sick, and if you’re feeling a little bit wrung out yourself. Your first thought isn’t oh gosh, I hope they’re okay. It’s Oh god. How are we going to manage the day now and then very quickly, I think, Oh, I hope they’re okay. But normally, when I’m my empathy bucket is full. My first thought is, oh gosh, I hope they’re okay. So I need to refill my bucket. And I think the other thing I try to encourage my trainees to do, which I would encourage managers to do in organizations, is to try to understand the impact of a condition on a patient’s quality of life. If you can try to elicit that from someone, then what you then suggest as possible management options or. Solutions could be realistically achieved. But if you have no idea how much is impacting someone and in what way, then how can you possibly come up with any ideas or solutions to help them?

Amy Brann 10:14
Do you know that stimulates in my mind? Something a HR director said to me the other day, and she was really open and I guess, humble and vulnerable in admitting this, but she said, we are working with such a diverse workforce now, and it was a really recurring theme in the interviews I was doing for make your brain work that many people were sharing the diversity of the workforce essentially means there are many more. They haven’t made this connection, but I’m making it now with what you’ve said, there are many more people whose circumstances I know nothing about. I’ve got no reference points to I haven’t experienced what they’re experiencing. So in a way, I can only offer sympathy. I can only offer the hypothesized thoughts around what they’re experiencing, because I haven’t experienced it myself. So to imagine how they’re feeling would be much more difficult. But what, and the example she gave was, if someone comes to me and says that they’ve just been diagnosed with ADHD, I want to be helpful and I want to be compassionate, she says, but I don’t even know where to start. I don’t know what that means in terms of what their needs now are. And I think this is echoed by a lot of people that I speak to who are genuinely, really nice people, and they want to make life good for the people that they’re working with, especially in HR, in L and D, but also many of the managers that you and I have both worked with, for example, in the in the coaching academy, upskilling managers to have coaching skills. They are genuinely good people, and they are really putting effort into creating relationships that enrich people’s lives at work and with all these differences, for me, the easy solution, she says, Oh, it’s easy. The the easy thing to remember is to be curious. So if someone comes to you and says, I’ve just been diagnosed with ADHD, for you to then go, gosh, that sounds like it’s been a process. Can you tell me more about what this has meant for you and what we could do to help I don’t know what we can do yet, but I’ve only heard a little bit about ADHD on the news. I watched, listened to a podcast on it, but I don’t know what it will mean for you. And I think especially when we talk about neurodivergence, what it means for the individual is individual in so many cases, so actually having that curiosity and leaning in is really important. But does that sound like sound advice from your perspective? Because I guess it’s similar in some ways, with conditions. Not all patients experience the conditions and in the same way. And they don’t all have the same life impact. Do they?

Jessie Gulsin 13:06
No people. People are different. How somebody experienced their condition is going to be completely different to the next person. So the impact it has on them, unless you ask, you’re not going to know, and then you won’t be able to help them in the best way for them. And I have to say, on a selfish level, actually, I mean, I’ve been a doctor for 15 years now, and on a selfish level, for me, being empathetic is definitely helpful for patients, and I don’t force it. It’s not it’s genuine, like I genuinely am empathetic, but it allows me to develop these deeper connections with people, and therefore gives me more job satisfaction, and as a result, there’s less risk of me burning out. And I’m sure that you can tell us Amy about what’s going on in the brain when we are showing empathy and demonstrating that, but I just think all round, there’s benefits here.

Amy Brann 13:59
Yeah, it’s a really interesting one in terms of what’s what’s going on in the brain. I love what you’ve said. So one of the mechanisms, as it were, that is, I would say, still under question. So the when the research first came out around the mirror neuron system, it was purely a like a physical mirroring that was identified, it was the monkeys eating ice cream, if you’re familiar with the study, that then activated the same neurons in the monkeys as the experimenters who were actually eating the ice cream. But it wasn’t long before it started to be researched into other areas. So in emotions, do I infer what you’re feeling? Because my mirror neurons are activating. And I’ve read studies that propose both sides of the coin when it comes to whether the mirror neuron system is really active and playing a crucial role in emotional empathy. I think it’s leaning towards it’s got a real we. Valid input, but I will probably hold off a conclusion, I suppose, on that front, until we’ve got a little bit more evidence. But it’s certainly a consideration, and at the very least, if you’re crying, that’s a physical thing that is likely to evoke things in me. And so while I won’t ever feel the same as you, because your genetics, your life experiences, the way your emotions are constructed today, are different from mine, there certainly that certainly could be a mechanism at play another network that’s really important for us being able to be empathetic to others. And this is a network that’s been, really, I would almost say, neglected, based on how society and cultures have moved so because we are such a task positive kind of culture, certainly the working world, it’s always, it’s almost always about Do, do, do. And what I hear from people is that they don’t get as much of a chance to just pause think experience, and the default mode network is the network that switches on when we are between tasks. That’s how they discovered it, when someone was in an MRI scanner, and it just sprung into action when they weren’t doing something. And the researchers were puzzled, what’s going on here. The brain’s still working, but we’re not getting the subject to do anything. And yes, the brain’s still working, and it’s involved in the self referential thinking, in the mind wandering so when we’re imagining scenarios and mentalizing, and it allows us to think about other people’s experiences and other people’s perspectives, and so it’s really important for understanding others. Then linked to the default mode network, we’ve got several regions of the brain that are important. So the insular, the anterior insula, is activated when we see others experiencing pain, so it helps us to feel others pain, and it helps us on a sensory level. So the insulator is really involved in our sensory experiences, the anterior cingulate cortex, which is like the alarm system, to alert us to if something is different and we need to tune into it, it can also be important in regulating our emotional responses and modulating our effective experiences at different times. And it often works with the insula, then you’ve got the medial prefrontal cortex. So our prefrontal cortex that gets involved in so much, but it’s it can be involved in cognitive empathy, so in constructing what I would expect you to be feeling and understanding. So again, more experience, more exposure to difference, can help me to expand my repertoire, almost my data points that I can then draw on in different situations, temporal parietal junction,

Jessie Gulsin 17:55
yeah, just on that point, I was just, I was just thinking to myself, you know, I’ve been a doctor for many years. I’ve come across so many different people. You know, empathy is something that I’ve clearly gradually tried to master. Or have I always been empathetic? I mean, I’ve always been told by friends and family, oh, yes, you we always need to be a doctor. We always need to be a GP, because of that level of empathy and emotional intelligence that you have, which is really nice. But then I think it was it always there, or is this something that’s gradually, then developed over time, and I’ve learned to hone my skills in because of what I’ve been exposed to, because of the different individuals that I’ve come across. So that’s really interesting. Sorry to interrupt you. Amy there,

Amy Brann 18:38
yeah, I think it’s always both. So I think you might have had a genetic predisposition. You might have been wired. Your early life experiences might have predisposed you to be more empathetic. But if you had then gone into to be stereotypical, an IT type job where you had very little exposure to humans, it’s possible that your empathy wouldn’t have developed, and you wouldn’t have had the ability to relate to lots of different people. But one of the things I really frequently notice with either medics or people, and I’m sure there will be others, these are just the two groups that I’ve noticed, or those that have been to international schools during a lot of their formative years, is they can talk to anyone and make them feel at ease, and not everyone can do that. So I think, I think your experiences will have shaped you into an even more empathetic person.

Jessie Gulsin 19:32
So how would you answer the question, if somebody was to ask you, then how can I develop this skill? Amy, how can I okay, how can I become more empathetic? Well,

Amy Brann 19:45
it links exactly to what we know about what’s activating in the brain. So I briefly mentioned temporal parietal junction that’s involved in taking other people’s perspectives, so seeing into the situation. I. And without blending our own emotions or thoughts into it, so helping to keep things separate. And then finally, the amygdala, with most people will have heard of the amygdala, now very involved in emotions, fears, responses, everything, but it will be then involved in our empathetic response. If we had a problem with our amygdala, it’s quite conceivable we would have a problem with empathy, but in terms of what we can do to change things, one of my favorite ones is to expose ourselves to diverse narratives. Most of us like hearing things that reinforce what we believe they are confirmation bias at work, but I deliberately task myself with watching, typically watching, but sometimes listening to stuff that is really different from what I believe. And my husband will say, Why are you watching this rubbish? And I’ll say, I know on the surface, it looks like rubbish, but and

Jessie Gulsin 20:57
Amy, it can be the classification here for you watching some trash telly.

Amy Brann 21:02
Yes and no. So absolutely, I do watch the trash Telly, and I watch things that a little bit more cerebral, but also dealing with situations that I really don’t relate to. And there are some amazing what do you call them journalists who interview people and go and stay with people who live very different lives to the lives that I live. They have different beliefs. They have different approaches to things. And being exposed to that could challenge my beliefs and thoughts, which is useful and healthy but also just helps me see things from their perspective, because I won’t get the chance to meet probably as many people as you meet. I mean the number of people that you meet in a working day that may all come from different backgrounds and have different preferences and all of those things. So to just expose ourselves to what we can and when we get the opportunity in real life, you know, to sit down with someone who might have different thoughts to us, to lean into that, to be curious, to ask questions, and you know, people with different religious backgrounds or sets of beliefs, political beliefs, all of these things. So any different so exposure to diverse narrative is one mindful listening links really closely. So this is not just listening for the sake of responding. This is deeply listening huge range of different benefits, perspective, taking exercises. So we recommend this it to organizations all the time for lots of different outcomes that they looking to achieve. We even teach it on the coaching program, don’t we? So stepping into different shoes, metaphorically or physically, if you can, but trying to look at situations from different perspectives can again, help broaden and then help relatability, but then almost the flip side of that is emotional regulation techniques. Are we good at regulating ourselves? Can we attune to others through becoming better at the strengthening the networks that are really responsible for our emotional regulation. Do we have self compassion? I know you’ve talked about this like your own bucket being filled up before we then go to others and even getting better at observing people. You know, the mirror neurons have got a better chance of doing their job if we’re tuned in and present. Can we see what people’s body language is doing, listen to their tone, all of the non verbal cues and that side of things. So I think there’s good evidence bases for lots of steps that can be taken that can increase our own empathy intentionally.

Jessie Gulsin 23:47
There is a lot out there isn’t there really interesting stuff. And as I said earlier, there’s there’s benefits all around you know, I think that I definitely find this aspect of my job highly satisfying, and as a result, I enjoy my job more. So I think, going back to, yeah, my empathy bucket, by the end of the day, it’s pretty empty. I’ve given out a lot of empathy that day to all my patients. And my poor family don’t get much of my empathy, so I’m a little bit snappy and irritable with them. And so actually what I then need to ensure that I do is to make sure that’s filled and that requires effort on my part to look after myself, which you know, we talked about in another podcast, but which is why identifying when you’re feeling stressed and knowing what what the your telltale signs after that, why it’s then so important to to make sure that you’re Yeah, that you’re you’re maintaining some sense of balance, which can be difficult in our busy lives.

Amy Brann 24:49
Hmm. But so to answer those people who say, you know is, is being empathetic weak? Or can we? Can we? I. Enforce boundaries while being empathetic. When we look at the science behind empathy and what it gives us, I see the two things as completely unconnected. Can you be empathetic and weak? Yes, but you can also be empathetic and strong. Can you be empathetic and enforce boundaries? Yes, or you could not, but the two aren’t interconnected at all. I think the problem arises, and I’m sympathetic, or maybe empathetic, to individuals who experience these challenges? It’s the reality is, if someone really requires you to do something different, can you while still being showing empathy? So for example, if work is really stressful to someone they’ve shared they’re really struggling. Can you give them more work to do if the work load is there? And I think this is where we get into a trickier place, isn’t it?

Jessie Gulsin 26:15
Oh yeah. I mean, we’ve got everyone’s got targets to meet deadlines that their own kind of pressures from the next person above them. So I guess that’s when it really is testing us. And I think it sort of links back to what you’re saying that I think some of the biggest challenges with kind of practicing this is the boundary setting piece that you mentioned, empathies, empathy and boundary setting, which can be really challenging. Like I definitely find my empathy dwindling when I have seven or eight trainees that I’m looking after, and also my own patients to look after, and they’re constantly coming in and out my room and out my room, but they you know that they need that I’m their trainer. I need to answer questions and be available for them. And so I think the way that I got around my then slightly dwindling empathy on that side of things was to then have kind of specific time frames when they could then ask me the questions. So it was then practical things that I was doing to protect my empathy from diminishing. So I think in this pressured world we all live in, it is possible to be empathetic, but there are challenges, and we appreciate that, but there are ways around it, which is, I guess, what you’re trying to explain with your kind of practical solution to and the neuro scientific backing to that and why it’s so important?

Amy Brann 27:46
Yeah, I think there. I think we have to keep separate. You can be empathetic and you can have then challenges as a result. But those challenges does not mean stop being empathetic, and it’s that then next stage of working out, okay, what do we do when there are needs? And it might be that some people are not able to meet those needs in a workplace at particular times, but I think we have to keep them separate, otherwise we risk making empathy something it’s not and that insight is hugely valuable, and someone feeling heard and seen is hugely valuable for their well being, as well as for their performance. They won’t achieve what they’re capable of if that’s not the case. Okay, I’m clearer. That’s brilliant. Thank you, and I know that. I know our hallmarks for high performance program, which is for managers and leaders, goes into this more and unpacks more of the strategies that you can use to increase some of these skills that not every like not everyone is born with, for sure, and sometimes the routes people have taken might mean that these skills are less well developed in some individuals, or more well developed, As in your case, but we’ll put a link in the show notes to some aspects of that and how things can be improved. Brilliant. Okay, well, if you enjoyed today’s show, please do share it with a friend or colleague who might find it helpful. It’s one of the best ways to help us grow and reach more people like you and build this strong community, so make sure you’re following us on your preferred viewing or listening platform, so that you’re first to know when the next episode is released.